No, this is not legal

[luke warmwater]

Re: No, this is not legal

My brother and I wired our cousin's house.

He supplied the materials.

He said that he wanted his branch circuts to be 20amp.

He bought 12/2 and 14/3.

I asked what the 14/3 was for and he replied "for the 3-way switches".

He made a another trip to the supply house.

 

[reboldhack]

Re: No, this is not legal

I think that part of the receptacle tap rule (Table 210.24) doesn't make sense. If you're allowed to install 15 amp rated receptacles off of a 20 amp rated receptacle ciruit, the why isn't the 6" set of tap wires to the 15 amp device (receptacle) allowed to be #14 wire? The main portion of the circuit wiring is still #12 wire.

 

[steve66]

Re: No, this is not legal

I think that part of the receptacle tap rule (Table 210.24) doesn't make sense. If you're allowed to install 15 amp rated receptacles off of a 20 amp rated receptacle ciruit, the why isn't the 6" set of tap wires to the 15 amp device (receptacle) allowed to be #14 wire? The main portion of the circuit wiring is still #12 wire.

My best guess: if it is a duplex, someone could plug in two 10 amp appliances at the same time. That would leave 20A on a #14 wire.

Is a 15A rating on a duplex for the entire device, or per outlet? If it is for the entire device, it seems like 15A duplexes should be limited to 15A circuits.

Steve

 

[stud696981]

Re: No, this is not legal

-----------------------------------------------
I think that part of the receptacle tap rule (Table 210.24) doesn't make sense. If you're allowed to install 15 amp rated receptacles off of a 20 amp rated receptacle ciruit, the why isn't the 6" set of tap wires to the 15 amp device (receptacle) allowed to be #14 wire? The main portion of the circuit wiring is still #12 wire.
------------------------------------------------

I have seen this #14 wire tap done on 20A circuits for receptacles numerous time by different licensed electrical contractors. I don?t ever recall a time an inspector caught this either. Bottom line, while it is not code compliant, a 6? tap will NOT hurt anything as long as the connections are tight on both ends.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: No, this is not legal

Steve,

Is a 15A rating on a duplex for the entire device, or per outlet?

Each of the two receptacles in a duplex are rated at 15 amps.
Don

 

[peter d]

Re: No, this is not legal

Bottom line, while it is not code compliant, a 6? tap will NOT hurt anything as long as the connections are tight on both ends.

Wrong! As Steve mentioned, it is entirely possible to overload the illegal #14 wire if you have more than 15 amps of load connected.

 

[bthielen]

Re: No, this is not legal

Typical duplex 20A receptacles also come with the 15A slots. It is very easy for a DYIer to purchase and install a 20A receptacle in place of a 15A that has gone bad. If he/she doesn't recognize that 14ga. wire was used for the pigtails, a 20A receptacle is now supplied with 14ga. wire. From personal experience, I knew how to properly connect a receptacle before I knew the reason that some of them had the horizontal slot. All my 15A appliances still worked fine so I was none the wiser.

Any wonder I get scoffed at when I inform friends and neighbors that an inspection is required even for a receptacle replacement.

Bob

 

[stud696981]

Re: No, this is not legal

Bottom line, while it is not code compliant, a 6? tap will NOT hurt anything as long as the connections are tight on both ends.

Wrong! As Steve mentioned, it is entirely possible to overload the illegal #14 wire if you have more than 15 amps of load connected.

--------------------
Peter

Southern Connecticut

Peter, I?m not trying to say this is ok for every circumstance or be argumentative. I realize this is not NEC compliant. This is all I?m saying, 15A duplex outlets are installed everyday on 20A circuits with #12 or larger wire which is code compliant. A 6? pig tail made from MODERN #14 wire and properly terminated will not be damaged by pulling up to 20A if that occurred due to the fact that it is only 6 inches, their will not be enough resistance to cause that short piece to heat up and damage the insulation. Again, I wasn?t condoning this practice, I was just making a point that it would work safely when done with modern wiring and good terminations. Now if someone said why not take 50 feet of #14, tap a 20A circuit to feed an outlet, I would say no way because that would definitely create a potential for disaster.

 

[peter d]

Re: No, this is not legal

studs,

I agree with you to a point. Yes, it's true that there are many of these incorrect "taps" in operation that are in no danger of imminent meltdown. And very few receptacles ever see a full 20 amp load for any great length of time, at least in residential settings.

Going purely by T310.16, (ignoring other code articles), you could even make the argument that #14 THHN is suitable for a 20 amp load. I had someone try to convince me this practice was OK by that logic. I didn't back down, and he finally conceded that "The inspector never noticed it."

 

[paul]

Re: No, this is not legal

Bottom line, while it is not code compliant, a 6? tap will NOT hurt anything as long as the connections are tight on both ends.

It's all good. Small wire only causes small fires. That's why we're all bonded and insured, right?

 

[internalaffairs]

Re: No, this is not legal

I think some people missed the boat on the previous comment. From what I gather Stud696981 specifically said this was not code compliant and didn?t suggest doing it, however he stated that it would work without any real issues. Take a look at 310-16, the actual (reality) ampacity of 14 gauge wire at 60C is 20 amps, the table however notes that you cannot go over 15 amps on the over current protection. Food for thought.....if this 6 inch tap was really a hazard then why does the code allow a special table for 1 and 2 family dwelling service entrance conductors? Think about it, for a 100 amp service it allows you to use #4 copper (THHN or SE) which is rated at 70A@60C, 85A@75C, and 95A@90C. These runs are several feet long, not inches like the tap discussed and no one is talking about how this burns down houses. I'm not suggesting people start installing with the under sized taps, but suggesting that the notion of wire melting or burning a building in this EXACT circumstance is extremely unlikely. Perhaps this is why some inspectors have always overlooked this in the past. Also I have seen some jurisdictions that adopt the NEC exempt certain items because they feel it is not a true hazard, safety issue, etc?..ie; The state of NewYork exempts AFCI?s in one and two family single phase dwellings with a 400A service or smaller!

 

[roger]

Re: No, this is not legal

internalaffairs,

Food for thought.....if this 6 inch tap was really a hazard then why does the code allow a special table for 1 and 2 family dwelling service entrance conductors? Think about it, for a 100 amp service it allows you to use #4 copper (THHN or SE) which is rated at 70A@60C, 85A@75C, and 95A@90C.

think about it, this is allowed by code and if you go to article 220 you will see why.

Now as far as the #14 taps on receptacles of 20 amp circuits, it isn't allowed any more than a panel in a dwelling bathroom, which may not be a cause of widespread death and destuction, but for some reason has been determined to not be a safe installation.

Roger

[ December 13, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[charlie]

Re: No, this is not legal

Is a 15A rating on a duplex for the entire device, or per outlet? If it is for the entire device, it seems like 15A duplexes should be limited to 15A circuits.

Steve, I think this was missed in the discussion and it needs to be said. A 15 ampere duplex receptacle is tested the same as a 20 ampere receptacle for the feed through portion of the receptacle. If you land on the screw with a #12 Cu. conductor and feed through the receptacle to the next screw, it will handle the full load of a 20 ampere circuit. Additionally, as mentioned before, each receptacle must be able to handle a full 15 amperes. That is why it is called a duplex or two separate receptacles on a single yoke.

The argument that #14 will not hurt anything reminds me of the time I found thermostat wire used for part of a circuit. It was not loaded very heavily so it wasn't hurting anything . . . right?

 

[iwire]

Re: No, this is not legal

Be professional take pride in your work, use the correct conductor size.

If 12 AWG is to tough to work with find a new trade. :roll:

 

[George Stolz]

Re: No, this is not legal

Charlie, Thanks. We'd been arguing over lunch about the use of 15A recep's on 20A circuits.

 

[clayton]

Re: No, this is not legal

question.
in 210.21(b)(3), doesn't it seem to allow the use of 15amp, receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?? (multiple outlets,on a general branch circuit.

im just wondering what your thoughts are on this??
obviously 12awg wire but what of the 15 amp recp?

clay.

 

[paul]

Re: No, this is not legal

Originally posted by clayton:
question.
in 210.21(b)(3), doesn't it seem to allow the use of 15amp, receptacles on a 20 amp circuit?? (multiple outlets,on a general branch circuit.

im just wondering what your thoughts are on this??
obviously 12awg wire but what of the 15 amp recp?

clay.

A 15Amp single receptacle must be placed on a 15Amp maximum circuit (210.21(B)(1)). You are allowed to place multiple 15Amp receptacles on a 20Amp circuit (210.21(B)(3)). A 15Amp duplex receptacle counts as multiple (2) recepts, they just happen to be on the same yoke.

 

[charlie]

Re: No, this is not legal

The load on a 15 ampere receptacle is limited by the plug. A 20 ampere plug will not fit and the NRTL will not permit a damaging load to be on a 15 ampere plug.

 

[rattus]

Re: No, this is not legal

It would seem that you would NEVER use any #14 cable on a 20A breaker, although 20A would not cause a fire.

Now whether pigtails are 6 inches or 6 feet, the same amount of heat per foot is generated by the load current, and that is what is important. I would speculate though that pigtails, being out in the open so to speak, cool better than the wires in a sheathed cable.

 

[petersonra]

Re: No, this is not legal

Originally posted by charlie:
The load on a 15 ampere receptacle is limited by the plug. A 20 ampere plug will not fit and the NRTL will not permit a damaging load to be on a 15 ampere plug.

It is still possible for someone to plug two loads into the same 15A receptacle that exceed 15A in total load.

However, the chance of a small length of #14 wire entirely inside a handy box reaching a temperature that would create a hazard even with 20A flowing through it seems very remote.