northern Illinois service responsibility

[MannyBurgos]

Realistically, the wire does not need to be larger than the fuses in the disconnect, by the way what size are they?

I would recommend that the overheated lug also be replaced.

Each fuse is 600 amps....

 

[Sierrasparky]

That lug is in need of replacement and other damage may exist. Looks like it may have come loose when the wire was installed as the lug is twisted.

POCO should be responsible for the wire , but usually does not take responsibility for the equipment on customer side. At least that is the way on the west coast.

 

[kwired]

im gonna give poco a call on Tuesday to come out and inspect and hand them my load calcs so do you think they will just blow me away?

Yes, especially if they have any demand type metering to prove the load is/has been under the conductor ampacity.

Ok. Im going to go with a loose connection and poco wires are undersized which is acceptable to ahj.

This would be a first time repair for me for damage on a service entrance conductor. Is poco responsible for repair on this wire or is customer responsible for this? No slack available to cut and re-install. What's the best way to splice a piece of 350kcmil aluminum while still meeting 2011 Nec?

POCO responsibility is dependent on where the service point is. The fact this is an older install things could have changed from the time of installation to now. There are several ways to splice it, but the splice can't be in the raceway, which is probably a problem for you. However if it is indeed POCO's responsibility to repair (the conductor - the damaged lug/or other components may still be on the owner) they possibly could splice it in the raceway if they wanted as they do not have to follow NEC.

As others have mentioned that lug and anything else that has been overheated will need replaced, or this will happen again even if you use what you think is the right sized conductor.

I will add that if the load were truly too high you likely have overheating signs in the other ungrounded conductor as well, and am leaning toward a loose connection as the main culprit of this failure.

 

[meternerd]

Can you cite any code reference requiring that?

110.12.B ? Not being a Code guy (most of utility work is non-NEC stuff) I can only go by years of experience with service entrance cable. I've investigated many complaints of flickering lights, dim/bright lights (neutral problem), low voltages, etc. I'd say 90% are due to a loose or corroded aluminum connection that has overheated to the point that service equipment or conductor was damaged. Contact grease seems to have been used only rarely. NEC is minimum requirements. I just always did it that way and still will. All aluminum rated inline splices such as "Insulink" and Polaris connectors I've seen have grease inside. Must be a reason.

 

[GoldDigger]

110.12.B ? Not being a Code guy (most of utility work is non-NEC stuff) I can only go by years of experience with service entrance cable. I've investigated many complaints of flickering lights, dim/bright lights (neutral problem), low voltages, etc. I'd say 90% are due to a loose or corroded aluminum connection that has overheated to the point that service equipment or conductor was damaged. Contact grease seems to have been used only rarely. NEC is minimum requirements. I just always did it that way and still will. All aluminum rated "insulink splices" and Polaris connectors I've seen have grease inside. Must be a reason.

I would imagine that it is not just any "grease" as for water protection, but instead specifically an anti-oxidant mixture.

 

[kwired]

110.12.B ? Not being a Code guy (most of utility work is non-NEC stuff) I can only go by years of experience with service entrance cable. I've investigated many complaints of flickering lights, dim/bright lights (neutral problem), low voltages, etc. I'd say 90% are due to a loose or corroded aluminum connection that has overheated to the point that service equipment or conductor was damaged. Contact grease seems to have been used only rarely. NEC is minimum requirements. I just always did it that way and still will. All aluminum rated inline splices such as "Insulink" and Polaris connectors I've seen have grease inside. Must be a reason.

Old aluminum alloys (like from 25+ years ago) did require antioxidation compound. Newer alloys used now do not require it, but it doesn't hurt to use them either. People that were in the trade when those old alloys were all that was available were trained to always use compound, and old habits just kick in automatically. Some of us that have been in the trade 25ish years were trained to always use compound just because that is all those that trained us knew at the time, though most of the new conductors we were handling really did not require use of compound.

Now I find myself sometimes using compound but more often I don't really use it anymore. Haven't seen any obvious troubles from not using it yet. And when a lug does get hot like it did in the OP how do you determine it was because of no compound vs a loose connection? When only one conductor (strike that - replace with one termination) has such a problem I tend to lean toward a poor connection in the first place as the cause.

 

[MannyBurgos]

That lug is in need of replacement and other damage may exist. Looks like it may have come loose when the wire was installed as the lug is twisted.

POCO should be responsible for the wire , but usually does not take responsibility for the equipment on customer side. At least that is the way on the west coast.

I actually looked at the lug and it is not twisted. It may look that way due to the picture. I am still waiting for poco to come out...

 

[kwired]

Look at the bus segment the lug is attached to. The top one is shiny, the bottom one is dull - it has been overheated, if you don't replace everything that has been overheated you will have similar troubles again in the near future, even if you increase the conductor size.

 

[meternerd]

[Old aluminum alloys (like from 25+ years ago) did require antioxidation compound. Newer alloys used now do not require it,]

Back to my comment....Polaris and Insulink devices all still have dielectric compound inside. If it isn't necessary, I really doubt the manufacturers would go to the added expense. Profit margin.....but just my opinion....if yours is different, I'll patiently explain why you're wrong.

I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right!:roll:

Here's one opinion besides mine..AlumiConn connector Mfgr...

Do I Need To Add Antioxidant to the AlumiConn Connector?

I recently got off the phone with a contractor from New Jersey who was asking several good questions about the AlumiConn connector. And one question that came up (that many other people ask, too) is whether or not you need to add antioxidant when you install an AlumiConn connector.
The answer is that you do not need to add any antioxidant to the AlumiConn connector because they already come pre-filled with a proprietary antioxidant sealant that coats the wires as you insert them into the connector!
This proprietary antioxidant helps to dramatically reduce oxidation ? one of the primary problems with aluminum wiring. Oxidation occurs when oxygen comes into contact with metal and is particularly problematic with aluminum as the oxidation occurs faster than with copper. As this oxidation builds up on the wire, it causes more resistance for any electrical current to run through it, which results in heat build up and can possibly cause a fire.
So, it?s extremely important that you use antioxidant when dealing with aluminum wire! And since the AlumiConn connector comes pre-filled with the antioxidant, you can save time and money since you won?t need to buy any additional antioxidant or take the time to install it!

 

[kwired]

[Old aluminum alloys (like from 25+ years ago) did require antioxidation compound. Newer alloys used now do not require it,]

Back to my comment....Polaris and Insulink devices all still have dielectric compound inside. If it isn't necessary, I really doubt the manufacturers would go to the added expense. Profit margin.....but just my opinion....if yours is different, I'll patiently explain why you're wrong.

I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right!:roll:

Here's one opinion besides mine..AlumiConn connector Mfgr...

Do I Need To Add Antioxidant to the AlumiConn Connector?

I recently got off the phone with a contractor from New Jersey who was asking several good questions about the AlumiConn connector. And one question that came up (that many other people ask, too) is whether or not you need to add antioxidant when you install an AlumiConn connector.
The answer is that you do not need to add any antioxidant to the AlumiConn connector because they already come pre-filled with a proprietary antioxidant sealant that coats the wires as you insert them into the connector!
This proprietary antioxidant helps to dramatically reduce oxidation ? one of the primary problems with aluminum wiring. Oxidation occurs when oxygen comes into contact with metal and is particularly problematic with aluminum as the oxidation occurs faster than with copper. As this oxidation builds up on the wire, it causes more resistance for any electrical current to run through it, which results in heat build up and can possibly cause a fire.
So, it?s extremely important that you use antioxidant when dealing with aluminum wire! And since the AlumiConn connector comes pre-filled with the antioxidant, you can save time and money since you won?t need to buy any additional antioxidant or take the time to install it!

That is from a connector manufacturer - which they tend to be the primary ones marketing antioxidant compounds as well as prefilling certain connectors with it. A lot of connectors are prefilled that get used with copper conductors even though they probably do not need the compound.

Now look for information from the aluminum conductor manufacturers and see what they have to say about the need for compound on any AA-8000 or higher series alloys.

As a utility you may run into alloys that are not AA-8000 or higher - you likely do need compound when using those, but (I'd have to look for a code section) NEC does require use of AA-8000 or higher alloys.


Add AA-8000 is required by 310.106(B)

 

[meternerd]

Interesting....never saw that section of the Code. I'm not sure what the specs are for the service wire we buy. Likely we'll just keep using it. Old habits are hard to break. Thx for the info.

 

[iwire]

The reason I asked for a code citation for it is because it is a myth. There is no direct NEC requirement to use any anti oxidants on any connections.

The exception to that is when a manufacture specifies its use. I have seen some older GE disconnects that had that requirement.

That said, it is my understanding that bare aluminum forms an oxide coating almost immediately so the only way to make anti-oxidants effective is to use it per the instructions which typically if not always require the conductor to be wire brushed first and then apply the anti-oxidant to be applied and worked in with the wire brush.

I have never seen anyone do that and if those steps are not done I believe all it does is make a sloppy mess in the terminal.

About the only time I use AL is when running temp services and feeders, I do not use any anti-oxidant as it will be taken apart long before any trouble can happen.

If I was in a high corrosive environment like at the ocean shore. I would think seriously about using copper over AL to avoid corrosion. There are power companies on the shore in my area that use copper for everything due to these issues.

I was drooling when a power company showed up with a huge spool of 4/0 copper triplex hanging off the back of their truck.

 

[iwire]

All aluminum rated inline splices such as "Insulink" and Polaris connectors I've seen have grease inside. Must be a reason.

If I recall the only Polaris that come with grease are ones for wet location but I could be mistaken. I suspect that is dielectric grease to keep moisture out.

 

[MannyBurgos]

Update: as most of you have stated, turns out that the heated wire was actually due to a loose connection (poco s.e.c are still undersized). The loose connection was actually between the metal clip and disconnect bar (part of the disconnect assembly). Upon doing further research on trying to find a replacement assembly, it turns out that this is a common issue with Sylvania GTE panels. Could not find any documentation or parts for that matter for this catalog no. We had to get Power Distribution in Franklin Park, IL. to fabricate a retrofit for us. I literally just got the engineer to bring to job site. Back to work...

 

[MannyBurgos]

Just finished installing the retro.

 

[kwired]

Just finished installing the retro.

I think you need to strip more insulation off conductors - especially the bottom lead on the breaker

 

[MannyBurgos]

I think you need to strip more insulation off conductors - especially the bottom lead on the breaker

Hahaha! Poco had to extend their s.e.c so they spliced and attached to my breaker. Is there something in code about bottom un-insulated conductor that I don't know about?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think you need to strip more insulation off conductors - especially the bottom lead on the breaker

There are a few inspectors in the Chicago burbs that will give you a red tag if there is more than 1/8" of bare conductor between the lug and the insulation....just an unwritten rule that is enforced in some areas.

 

[MannyBurgos]

There are a few inspectors in the Chicago burbs that will give you a red tag if there is more than 1/8" of bare conductor between the lug and the insulation....just an unwritten rule that is enforced in some areas.

im referring to the bottom (load side) where we have those aluminum conductors that kwired was talking about... are those bare aluminum conductors acceptable? If so, what the heck is the difference between 1/2" or 1" insulation off the end between term and insulation and an ENTIRE buss (conductor) that is completely exposed? If it's not in the nec or in written amendments than I really don't see a reason to red tag. That's just my argument. Of course, inspectors can say they want this and that but if it's not in the book (s), then all they can do is want.

 

[John120/240]

.... Upon doing further research on trying to find a replacement assembly, it turns out that this is a common issue with Sylvania GTE panels. Could not find any documentation or parts for that matter for this catalog no. We had to get Power Distribution in Franklin Park, IL. to fabricate a retrofit for us. I literally just got the engineer to bring to job site. Back to work...

Was it actually cheaper to go this route vs an off the shelf new disconnect ?