Not enough space on neutral bus

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I think it is very odd there are not sufficient neutral terminals. Are there grounded wires also landed on the neutral? Is there a possibility there are terminals behind the bar.
Does this panel allow 2 wires per - I have seen some that do.

If you say there are twin breakers. This may violate the panel, If that is so then why care about a wire nut in the panel .
I doubt this AHJ rule is legit if it not properly codified.

Picture is worth a thousand words!
 
kwired said:
Technicalities make a difference here. According to NEC the panelboard is the assembly containing the bus, it is installed in a "cabinet".

IMO city of Austin is objecting to splices in the cabinet (or did they redefine what a panelboard is vs what the NEC defines it as) and is making up rules that don't fully make any sense - is not possible to splice in the panelboard.

NEC doesn't object to splices in a cabinet.

My question earlier was regarding whether the neutral bus is part of the panelboard or is just another accessory inside the cabinet that also houses the panelboard
?
Also can't one consider to some extent that each neutral termination on that bus is a splice within the "cabinet"?
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You know I've not looked in the city's criteria to argue this but both city inspectors and third party inspectors for the Austin real estate market flag it constantly. Normally it's not a problem because there are always extra holes on the bus.


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1793 said:
Set a j-box outside of the panel and make your connections there.
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I would rather put a neutral bus in if I can find one. While you're right, it would be quicker and easier just to stick a bus and then having to pull wires out of a flush mount panel and cut in a box above the panel to make joints in, then re-feed back down into the panel.

Rather silly indeed. All of the other cities and municipalities in the area don't care. City of Austin is crazy about changing things like making sure red is on the left and black is on the right. For high volt they prefer brown yellow purple rather than brown orange yellow. They also make you buy meter cans from them now.


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teufelhounden91 said:
You know I've not looked in the city's criteria to argue this but both city inspectors and third party inspectors for the Austin real estate market flag it constantly. Normally it's not a problem because there are always extra holes on the bus.


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Click to expand...

Simply look at them blank faced and politely say "Code reference, please."

Works wonders at times.
 
I also don't see anything in there about double lugging a neutral not being acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC that talks about double lugging a neutral not being an approved method?


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teufelhounden91 said:
You know I've not looked in the city's criteria to argue this but both city inspectors and third party inspectors for the Austin real estate market flag it constantly. Normally it's not a problem because there are always extra holes on the bus.


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Click to expand...

Then you or your employer needs to call them on it. Unless there is an valid amendment they have no business pulling this type of stunt. There is no reasonable basis for banning splices like we described in panelboards, and the alternatives only add cost and time to installations. Wirenut splices are considered perfectly safe in a seperate box near the panel or all over the house that the panel serves, but not in the panel itself? Get real.

Many inspectors enforce "off the books" requirements strictly out of tradition, but those inspectors can learn to leave the past behind and correctly follow the NEC like the electricians they incorrectly cite.

Others only misunderstand the NEC, and/or prohibit something because of something they "heard"-in that case they can find out that one can learn new things as they get older and that being ignorant/ misinformed doesn't give them a green light to add unnecessary cost to an install.

And finally you have those guys that know better but will enforce something solely because of a perceived need to appear smarter or be in control, but even delusions are no excuse.:D

Ever find out anything about that listing?
 
teufelhounden91 said:
I also don't see anything in there about double lugging a neutral not being acceptable. Is there anything in the NEC that talks about double lugging a neutral not being an approved method?


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Click to expand...

You can't double up the noodles.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded
conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual
terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
 
jumper said:
You can't double up the noodles.

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded
conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual
terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Click to expand...

Thank you I couldn't find anything but I didn't think to look in 408


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Would there be an objection to removing the 2 neutral wires from the bus, inserting a single neutral wire in the bus an bonding that wire to the others 2 together with a wirenut.
 
templdl said:
Would there be an objection to removing the 2 neutral wires from the bus, inserting a single neutral wire in the bus an bonding that wire to the others 2 together with a wirenut.
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That's what we were discussing a few posts up. I'm going to call the city Monday and ask about all this.


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