Number of Receptacles

[K8MHZ]

You may want to rethink that statement.

Explain why you think 100 or more on the same circuit all on one wall would create a hazzard. How many lamps or TV's are you going to have on this wall?

You can wire however you want to but, those who install per the code and win bids are winning the game and this doesn't mean they are cutting corners to do so.

Even though the NEC is the minimum, following it provides a very safe installation even though you may not like it.

If you want to buy a Cadilac go for it, for many an Impala or Crown Vic is all they need.

Roger

I never said on one wall. Besides, friends don't let friends drive Fords.

 

[K8MHZ]

That just supports my opinion that many electricians are full of themselves.

That is your assessment of someone that takes pride in their work?

FWIW, my little quip is not one of my originals. It is how the inspector for the City of Muskegon starts his code upgrade classes. It just so happens I agree with him.

As for code minimum work not considered to be cutting corners, that is a matter of personal perception. Code minimum means using the cheapest materials, the lowest priced help and installing in the fastest manner with nothing else but price to be considered, does it not?

I came through my apprenticeship with the goal of being the best in my class. Not only did I achieve my goal, I was the first person in the history of our local to get higher than 100 percent on our 5 year final exam. (Thanks to extra credit). Even so, I am still learning and still trying to be a better electrician today than I was yesterday. I may not be as humble as you would prefer and perhaps to your surprise I don't consider myself to be perfect or beyond improvement by any means. If your remark about some electricians being 'full of themselves' was directed at me I suggest that before you make a permanent assessment of that nature you spend some time working with me.

Starting tomorrow I will be at an 850 megawatt power plant working 12 hour days to correct a power outage that is affecting a few hundred electrical customers in our area. When we get the lights back on for those in need I will go back to roping apartments.

I am just curious, are you that versatile? I am not suggesting you aren't, but I sincerely need to consider the source of your statement.

 

[480sparky]

To back up what K8 is trying to say:

Q. What do you call the person who graduates with the lowest score in medical school?

A. Doctor.

I think I heard that one here, I'm not sure. My memory's not what it used to be.

K8's feelings on this is kinda like mine about test scores. If 75 is a passing grade when you took your exam, does it make any difference whether you scored 75 or 100? Did your grade determine your pay? Did you jump a couple rungs on the ladder if you aced the test? Of course not. You passed. And if you wire a home to the Code minimum, it still passes just the same.

 

[tryinghard]

I guess I don't see where the total amount of receptacles installed has anything to do with the amount connected to a single circuit.

This subject just supports my earlier (on a different thread) statement that any electrician that follows the NEC to the letter is the worst electrician allowed by law.

Just because the NEC allows me to put 100 receptacles on a single circuit doesn't mean I ever would, but because the NEC allows it, the possibility remains that my boss could be underbid by a 'code minimum' contractor that would do something of the sort, and, (by pointing out the allowance in the NEC) possibly be able to convince a customer that it was prudent.

I gota disagree with you about code minimum, maybe you meant code "un-thorough":roll:, because a code minimum contractor is extremely safe! The NEC has been authored for more than 110 years for the purpose of personal and property protection. The current [as well as the past] National Electrical Code Committee along with their panels are extremely qualified as experts in their fields.

A code minimum contractor will comply with 210-23 "In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating." But a code "un-thorough" contractor may not even know this code exists, and may not bother looking it up anyway. I have worked with many electricians that do not refer to NEC they only refer to verbal or memory; I notice these are the most dangerous installers not the code minimum.

The thing with multi-outlet circuits is they are application oriented.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I never said on one wall. Besides, friends don't let friends drive Fords.

Fords is all i buy and our company only buys fords.Without them who will pull that chevy home.Listen close on a quit night and you can hear a chevy rusting away.

 

[bikeindy]

You may want to rethink that statement.

You can wire however you want to but, those who install per the code and win bids are winning the game and this doesn't mean they are cutting corners to do so.

Even though the NEC is the minimum, following it provides a very safe installation even though you may not like it.


Roger

Not around here they are not. They are going bye bye fast, EC's that are doing code minimum to meet price demands of contractors are closing thier doors. Why various reasons but one is that they have put their name on a code minimum dwelling that the owners don't like and have to have upgrades done to make the electrical design better. The homeowners didn't call the EC who wired the home because they had no reason to believe they would do quality work.

 

[bikeindy]

Fords is all i buy and our company only buys fords.Without them who will pull that chevy home.Listen close on a quit night and you can hear a chevy rusting away.

The chevy is rusting away due to all those long hard years on the road making thier owners happy, while a Ford has already been recycled at some scrap yard.

 

[jwelectric]

What is the difference between Part II and Part III of Article 220?

Does these two parts address two different things and if so just what do they address?

What does Section 220.40 say?

Does Section 220.40 play any role in Part II of Article 220?

Could someone please read these parts of 220 and explain just what they are talking about?

 

[roger]

Not around here they are not. They are going bye bye fast, EC's that are doing code minimum to meet price demands of contractors are closing thier doors. Why various reasons but one is that they have put their name on a code minimum dwelling that the owners don't like and have to have upgrades done to make the electrical design better. The homeowners didn't call the EC who wired the home because they had no reason to believe they would do quality work.

Hmmm, so a GC forces these poor lowly EC's to go out of business and it's the EC's fault for not lowering his/her profit margin even further by providing a Cadillac at a Kia price.

I think there is some confusion here between hacks and quality code performing installers

If these dissatisfied people wanted bells and whistles they should have built a custom home instead of buying a Spec home.

They move in and find out they only have one switched lighting outlet per room and now they think it's the EC's fault that they don't have a switched receptacle too which, was because he provided a competitive bid with no design specifics requested.

Roger

 

[hardworkingstiff]

That just supports my opinion that many electricians are full of themselves.

I've been told I'm full of (doo doo).

 

[iwire]

I've been told I'm full of (doo doo).

I have no doubt I am. :grin:

 

[iwire]

That is your assessment of someone that takes pride in their work?

No, that is my assessment of someone that says this.

This subject just supports my earlier (on a different thread) statement that any electrician that follows the NEC to the letter is the worst electrician allowed by law.

You have wired to code minimum, we ALL wire to code minimum in some aspects of our work.

I take a lot of pride in my work, that applies if it is a bare bones installation or it is a highly specified job with every bell and whistle you can think of.

As for code minimum work not considered to be cutting corners, that is a matter of personal perception. Code minimum means using the cheapest materials, the lowest priced help and installing in the fastest manner with nothing else but price to be considered, does it not?

Sure most times code minimum and least expensive products go hand in hand. But that is a choice to be made by the person paying the bill, not an electrician that can't bring themselves to safely save the customers money.

I came through my apprenticeship with the goal of being the best in my class. Not only did I achieve my goal, I was the first person in the history of our local to get higher than 100 percent on our 5 year final exam. (Thanks to extra credit).

Thats great, what does your extensive knowledge have to do with the discussion at hand?

If your remark about some electricians being 'full of themselves' was directed at me I suggest that before you make a permanent assessment of that nature you spend some time working with me.

Here all we have to go is what a person types, and I found your statement to be insulting to most electricians as most electricians do code minimum work at times.

Starting tomorrow I will be at an 850 megawatt power plant working 12 hour days to correct a power outage that is affecting a few hundred electrical customers in our area. When we get the lights back on for those in need I will go back to roping apartments.

I am just curious, are you that versatile? I am not suggesting you aren't, but I sincerely need to consider the source of your statement.

I wire ATM buildings. :wink:

 

[George Stolz]

I wire ATM buildings. :wink:

Quit bragging, I'm still working on temp poles.

 

[roger]

That is your assessment of someone that takes pride in their work?

I'd say it's more of an assesment of someone that's a legend in their own mind

FWIW, my little quip is not one of my originals. It is how the inspector for the City of Muskegon starts his code upgrade classes. It just so happens I agree with him.

If that is really how this person views someone that follows the code, he's out to lunch, and you have my permission to forward this to him making sure he knows I said it

As for code minimum work not considered to be cutting corners, that is a matter of personal perception.

Nope that is the plain truth. Do you use EMT for jobs that are bid for NM? If you don't, do you consider yourself cutting coners?

Code minimum means using the cheapest materials,

And if these materials are fastened, strapped, spaced, guarded, and basically installed per code it is not cutting corners.

the lowest priced help and installing in the fastest manner with nothing else but price to be considered, does it not?

Where does low priced help, speed, and price come into play in relationship to code compliance? If you're saying these points create non-compliant installations then you are drifting from the conversation at hand.

I came through my apprenticeship with the goal of being the best in my class. Not only did I achieve my goal, I was the first person in the history of our local to get higher than 100 percent on our 5 year final exam. (Thanks to extra credit). Even so, I am still learning and still trying to be a better electrician today than I was yesterday.

Very good, but that has nothing to do with the conversation.

I may not be as humble as you would prefer and perhaps to your surprise I don't consider myself to be perfect or beyond improvement by any means.

And what does that have to do with strapping NM correctly?

Starting tomorrow I will be at an 850 megawatt power plant working 12 hour days to correct a power outage that is affecting a few hundred electrical customers in our area. When we get the lights back on for those in need I will go back to roping apartments.
I am just curious, are you that versatile? I am not suggesting you aren't, but I sincerely need to consider the source of your statement.

Trust me, Iwire is involved in projects of this magnitude as well as the ATM size jobs.

BTW, if you were really trying to give the customer a better installation than required by code you'd be using these receptacles at no additional cost to your customers wouldn't you? :roll:

Roger

 

[peter d]

Starting tomorrow I will be at an 850 megawatt power plant working 12 hour days to correct a power outage that is affecting a few hundred electrical customers in our area. When we get the lights back on for those in need I will go back to roping apartments.

I am just curious, are you that versatile? I am not suggesting you aren't, but I sincerely need to consider the source of your statement.

So if we don't work on power plant shutdowns, we are lesser electricians? What are you trying to say? :roll:

 

[bikeindy]

Hmmm, so a GC forces these poor lowly EC's to go out of business and it's the EC's fault for not lowering his/her profit margin even further by providing a Cadillac at a Kia price.

I think there is some confusion here between hacks and quality code performing installers

If these dissatisfied people wanted bells and whistles they should have built a custom home instead of buying a Spec home.

They move in and find out they only have one switched lighting outlet per room and now they think it's the EC's fault that they don't have a switched receptacle too which, was because he provided a competitive bid with no design specifics requested.

Roger

Roger you mentioned winning bids, those guy won the bids due to their own ignorance and doing everything to a minimum doesn't make money for you. they are out of business because they won the bids at prices they couldn't make a profit at. And home buyer don't know better as to why the have such a poor electrical design they don't feel they have gotten what they paid for. It is a perception that didn't help the EC's who "won the bid" and lost their company. the EC's I am talking about aren't little guys they are 10 - 40 truck operations.

 

[roger]

Roger you mentioned winning bids, those guy won the bids due to their own ignorance

This thread isn't about ignorant EC's, it's about wiring per the NEC, if you want to start a thread about "ignorant contractors" have at it.

The truth is, contractors that win bids by bidding per code standards when nothing more is asked for or specked are probably fine people, proud of their trade, conscientious and do not deserve to be trashed by those who think they are on a pedestal.

Once again, this thread has nothing to do with hacks or unscrupulous contractors.

BTW,

And home buyer don't know better as to why the have such a poor electrical design they don't feel they have gotten what they paid for.

they got what they paid for.

I will say again, if they wanted bells and whistles they should have built a custom home so they could have their whims and wishes.

Roger

 

[bikeindy]

This thread isn't about ignorant EC's, it's about wiring per the NEC, if you want to start a thread about "ignorant contractors" have at it.

The truth is, contractors that win bids by bidding per code standards when nothing more is asked for or specked are probably fine people, proud of their trade, conscientious and do not deserve to be trashed by those who think they are on a pedestal.

Roger

Umm I am not arguing with you. My original post was in response to this comment by you.

You can wire however you want to but, those who install per the code and win bids are winning the game and this doesn't mean they are cutting corners to do so.

I was stating that they are not winning the Game.
and went on to say why I thought they weren't winning.

I never said they were cutting corners.

 

[roger]

I was stating that they are not winning the Game.
and went on to say why I thought they weren't winning.

I never said they were cutting corners.

And with that being the case, its as you said, there are other factors in play besides wiring per the NEC that put them out of business.

Roger

 

[K8MHZ]

I'd say it's more of an assesment of someone that's a legend in their own mind


If that is really how this person views someone that follows the code, he's out to lunch, and you have my permission to forward this to him making sure he knows I said it

Nope that is the plain truth. Do you use EMT for jobs that are bid for NM? If you don't, do you consider yourself cutting coners?

And if these materials are fastened, strapped, spaced, guarded, and basically installed per code it is not cutting corners.


Where does low priced help, speed, and price come into play in relationship to code compliance? If you're saying these points create non-compliant installations then you are drifting from the conversation at hand.

Very good, but that has nothing to do with the conversation. And what does that have to do with strapping NM correctly?



Trust me, Iwire is involved in projects of this magnitude as well as the ATM size jobs.

BTW, if you were really trying to give the customer a better installation than required by code you'd be using these receptacles at no additional cost to your customers wouldn't you? :roll:

Roger

Actually Wattgates are over rated. I use Hubbells. Good stuff and much better than 22 cent Levitons. P&S are absolute junk at any price. The customers pay for what they get and a few extra bucks for quality receptacles hasn't put any of them in bankruptcy yet. If I can find a better product than Hubbells I will start using them. Better quality that is, not better advertisement.

FWIW, I tell customers that if they are looking for the lowest bid I won't be it and suggest the don't waste my time by putting in a bid they won't accept. Most of the time I only do T&M work as that is the fairest to both myself and the customer. By the same token, I don't choose doctors by those with the lowest prices. Instead I look for the best performance records.

There is plenty of room for all of us to have our own standards. I actually thank the code minimum contractors for giving me business to correct their errors in judgment. You code minimum guys are actually free advertisement for my and my counterparts that take pride in their work. Not many electricians like going behind the lowest legal installers but I do as part of my repertoire is found to be quite entertaining for the customer.