NYC Code

[peter d]

RI maybe? Huge nightclub fires that kill a hundred people tend to make one pucker up and over-engineer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

even tho setting off fireworks indoors has zip to do with the FA system, or exits.

I'm pretty familiar with RI. We have a lot of dumb fire alarm rules but that is not one of them.

 

[peter d]

I see the #10 size and fused disco/cut out, but not XHHW only or 3/4" RMC specified.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/rules/1_RCNY_4000-06_090208.pdf

I was mistaken.

 

[peter d]

You mean other than prohibiting a wire size that works fine everywhere else?

It's dumb and not defendable

:happyyes::thumbsup:

 

[iwire]

RI maybe? Huge nightclub fires that kill a hundred people tend to make one pucker up and over-engineer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

even tho setting off fireworks indoors has zip to do with the FA system, or exits.

My wife and I had gone to that club for some shows, was a cool place till .. I went to the site after the fire and after about 15 minutes of reading cards and other tributes from family members of the dead I was a balling like a baby. :weeping:


The RI fire alarm codes were already restrictive before that fire, the biggest change that fire made was sprinkler systems being required to be retrofitted into old buildings and yes I would say the fire departments are much more alert for compliance issues as far as the FACP being able to kill any PA system etc. I did a fire alarm system in a mattress store about 1 mile from the club, they made me kill the in store background music during a fire alarm trip.

 

[peter d]

My wife and I had gone to that club for some shows, was a cool place till .. I went to the site after the fire and after about 15 minutes of reading cards and other tributes from family members of the dead I was a balling like a baby. :weeping:


The RI fire alarm codes were already restrictive before that fire, the biggest change that fire made was sprinkler systems being required to be retrofitted into old buildings and yes I would say the fire departments are much more alert for compliance issues as far as the FACP being able to kill any PA system etc. I did a fire alarm system in a mattress store about 1 mile from the club, they made me kill the in store background music during a fire alarm trip.

They also changed it to require modern fire alarm systems in existing buildings. So, let's say you had a building that was built in 1990, it was wired with EMT and used the RI color code, but was not in compliance as far as the FACP or devices (temporal horn strobes, for instance.) Practically speaking, this meant abandoning the old system and installing a new one, since a large job would require leaving the old system off line for too long while modifications and upgrades were made to it.

 

[iwire]

They also changed it to require modern fire alarm systems in existing buildings. So, let's say you had a building that was built in 1990, it was wired with EMT and used the RI color code, but was not in compliance as far as the FACP or devices (temporal horn strobes, for instance.) Practically speaking, this meant abandoning the old system and installing a new one, since a large job would require leaving the old system off line for too long while modifications and upgrades were made to it.

Ok, you're right, I defer to the "Master of Electricity". :roll:

 

[peter d]

Ok, you're right, I defer to the "Master of Electricity". :roll:

Nice use of my line. :lol::thumbsup:

 

[Natfuelbilll]

I see the #10 size and fused disco/cut out, but not XHHW only or 3/4" RMC specified.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/rules/1_RCNY_4000-06_090208.pdf

That NYC Code refers to the grounding conductor to be sized at #10 min. Where does it say what size the ungrounded (phase) conductors must be?


Also, please explain what is an acceptable source for connecting the fire alarm panel.

 

[goldstar]

I remember reading on this forum that a branch circuit for a fire alarm panel in NYC must be in 3/4" RMC, #10 XHHW conductors and terminate on a fused disconnect.

That is correct. From what I remember the spec had to read "120/208, single phase, 3 wire." The fused cutout had to have both the fuses for the ungrounded conductors as well as a removable neutral. In most cases it was a piece of 3/8" copper tubing. The fused cutout had to be within 10' (one length of rigid gal conduit with no couplings) of the main distribution panel for the building. This is an archaic code but still in existence as far as I know but I haven't worked there since the 1980's (I'm dating myself).

It began with the old Acme coded manual FA systems where the manual stations and single stroke gong circuits were run in #12. If the gongs rang long enough and the circuit got too hot there was a thermal over load in the panel that would trip.

The #10's became a problem when the new electronic FA panels were introduced. It was pretty tough getting those wires into the European terminals on the PC boards without pulling them out of their solder joints. In today's FA panels there's really no need for the #10's. The panel remanufactures the line voltage to 24 volts D.C. at about 5 amps if I remember correctly. If additional power is needed for horn strobe circuits additional aux. panels can be added.

 

[gadfly56]

That is correct. From what I remember the spec had to read "120/208, single phase, 3 wire." The fused cutout had to have both the fuses for the ungrounded conductors as well as a removable neutral. In most cases it was a piece of 3/8" copper tubing. The fused cutout had to be within 10' (one length of rigid gal conduit with no couplings) of the main distribution panel for the building. This is an archaic code but still in existence as far as I know but I haven't worked there since the 1980's (I'm dating myself).

It began with the old Acme coded manual FA systems where the manual stations and single stroke gong circuits were run in #12. If the gongs rang long enough and the circuit got too hot there was a thermal over load in the panel that would trip.

The #10's became a problem when the new electronic FA panels were introduced. It was pretty tough getting those wires into the European terminals on the PC boards without pulling them out of their solder joints. In today's FA panels there's really no need for the #10's. The panel remanufactures the line voltage to 24 volts D.C. at about 5 amps if I remember correctly. If additional power is needed for horn strobe circuits additional aux. panels can be added.

I am most familiar with the Siemens product line, but I don't suppose the other major players are very different in the power supplies for their equipment. The XLS panel can mount a maximum of four (4) power supplies. Each has a maximum draw of 3.3 amps at 120 VAC for a total of 13.2 amps. IIRC, none of the equipment can accommodate a wire size greater than 12 AWG, so #10 is really useless.