Objectionable Current on Ground Line - can it be re-routed to maintain code?

[mikegbuf]

Addressing NEC 250.50 and 250.52


I have objectionable net current on a grounding wire to a water meter,
(oscillating) measuring between 2-5.0 amps
with an ammeter causing very high magnetic fields in living areas. I have two separate connections to the copper metallic water pipes
that seem to satisfy the code as far as BONDING and GROUNDING.



One BOND as a copper wire approximately 5-6 feet connecting from electric box to nearest copper pipe/ plumbing

and also a separate copper wire providing a GROUND,
for approximately 25 feet attached to the street-side of water meter

(between meter and street where it enters into concrete wall in basement in NY.)


Background:


There is a grounding rod, and have not measured it?s resistance in Ohms for effectiveness.
My understanding is that even if the resistance was reduced down to 1 ohm,
it would not be the path of least resistance relative to copper pipes/ meter
due to conductivity of soil being inferior to the copper metal.

There is a main water line that runs 6 feet or so along side of this townhouse.
that each unit T's into... wondering if I can make use of this to satisfy code.

Diagram:


--------------------------------------------- Main water line about 6 feet from townhouse
| |
| |
--------------------------------------------- Edge of Building to Basement
| |
water meter Electr Box - with new ground wire to outside Water Liine

About 35 feet between water meter and electric box

Could the ground wire between the electric box and the water meter
that is carrying this current
(since it has the path of least resistance between it and the ground rod)
be removed, and to #1) satisfy bonding, attach a ground wire from the electric box to the closest copper pipe
internally within the basement,

and then #2) use another copper wire to go from electric box to closest OUTSIDE plumbing as a GROUND
which would be that existing main water line I had mentioned.
Essentially re-routing the current outdoors.

In this way the current carried on the previous copper wire path to water meter
would then flow to outside of home to the main water line.

This new path would then carry the current and would radiate fields outside and not inside the house.

WOULD THIS SATISFY CODE or would the code need revision
to allow regulations to meet the goals of both bonding and grounding
without handcuffing us to the locations and distances
of where we need to connect to on these pipes to accomplish this result.

As a side note:


I have also noticed with a gauss meter and with an ammeter,

that a nearby home has currents on their phone and/ or cable line

and they are only 20 feet away from this same home.



Also someone mentioned that this nearby home could have a broken neutral

since walking in front of their house on sidewalk

measures double digit magnetic readings in front of their home.



They also have a metallic box or outlet - outdoor plug

that stakes into ground in landscape that when i approach it

it goes off the charts with magnetic fields on gauss meter
(wiring errors? neutral touching ground or in contact with metallic box?).



Are these all related issues, separate?



I?m trying to isolate this home from the others.

Once I kill the power (mains) in this home that has the ground line carrying the objectionable current,
there about a 80% drop in current with amperage at about 1.0-1.5 that can also be read with an ammeter
at the point of entry with water meter inlet
which tells me there are currents on main water line outside that enters into the dwelling..

So again, would replacing the water meter ground
with a separate copper wire to the water line outside the home
be compliant to satisfy code?


Thanks in advance with any insights that you may have

or any resources or professionals that can help me with these challenges.

Here's a great video explaining the issue that i've found online

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iejrZsXkM

Only problem is that this solution addresses isolating internal water pipes,
yet not the objectionable current on the grounding line between electric box and water meter.

 

[iwire]

Addressing NEC 250.50 and 250.52


I have objectionable net current on a grounding wire to a water meter,
(oscillating) measuring between 2-5.0 amps

That may be objectionable to you but it is normal. It is a byproduct of the water line being being electrically parallel to the homes service neutral conductor.


About the only way to move the resulting magnetic field would be to move the service disconnecting means and connection from it to the water line outside the home.

Personally I think you are selling snake oil but to each their own.

 

[jxofaltrds]

250.6(B)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Dig the water pipe up, at least 10' from the house and install a section of non-metallic piping.

 

[winnie]

Iwire, while this sort of current flow is pretty typical, I think it is almost an example of what the NEC calls 'objectionable current'. It is clearly current, flowing on bonded metal that is not expected to carry current, caused by multiple bonds between neutral and the bonded metal. The only thing that makes this _not_ fit the picture is that the multiple bonds happen at multiple separate premises separated by wiring not under the control of NEC codes.

mikegbuf: Unless you understand the physics of what you are doing, then you really are being a 'snake oil' salesman. People can argue back and forth about the health effects of stray currents and 60Hz magnetic fields, but the physics of what can reasonably be done to eliminate the bulk of the stray currents is pretty clear. You need to identify and remove parallel paths of current flow, and make sure that any current flow is balanced by near by return current flow in the opposite direction.

The current that you find problematic is caused by the connection to common metal piping. The solution that you propose does not eliminate this connection, and thus will not eliminate this parallel neutral current flow. At most you will change the shape of the parallel current path, and perhaps move the bulk of the 'current loop' outside of the home.

Since the NEC _requires_ that you bond interior metallic water piping systems, and requires that you use all available grounding electrodes, to eliminate this parallel current path you need to do something such as Don describes, in order to _eliminate_ the common metallic water piping path.

-Jon

 

[mikegbuf]

1 amp or so could be typical, yet as high as 5.0 amps, not so sure!

1 amp or so could be typical, yet as high as 5.0 amps, not so sure!

That may be objectionable to you but it is normal. It is a byproduct of the water line being being electrically parallel to the homes service neutral conductor.


About the only way to move the resulting magnetic field would be to move the service disconnecting means and connection from it to the water line outside the home.

Personally I think you are selling snake oil but to each their own.

Since I am not selling anything and only asking how to reroute the current
and yet maintain the integrity to ground as is required by code...
I was surprised by your comment that I am "selling snake oil." :blink:

In regards to your comment about the current being "normal." :happysad:
I used the term 'objectionable' current cause that is the term used with the NEC
in regards to this higher amperage running on a grounding line to a water meter.

Electrofelon states:
"People often cite "parallel paths for neutral current" as a violation and/or something to be avoided,
however this term appears in the NEC specifically for separately derived systems and not generally.
The correct term is "objectionable current." see 250.6.
This generally isnt enforced much for services, although IMO,
the wording is there to require you to set up your bonding jumpers as you would at an SDS,
or use a non-metallic raceway.
The big loophole though is that "objectionable current" is not defined."

and as PetrosA states:
"This is just my way of thinking, but to me objectionable current is current where an average person wouldn't expect it like at a water meter. The water meter isn't part of the electrical system per se, but can certainly carry harmful current and needs a jumper bonded around it. The current through bonds of different pieces of electrical equipment that aren't usually disassembled under energized conditions (like a metal raceway between meter socket and service disconnect) won't hurt anyone, therefore isn't "objectionable."

My Note:
Yet I would argue that it is objectionable and should be insulated within the electrical wiring/ system
and not routed along paths within our plumbing in home,
and may want to research those that have had a small amount of current pass through their bodies
in a metallic tin tub, this actually happen to me and the utility company employee and others measured it
and told me I was lucky I didnt' have a heart attack cause others have.

Dairy farmers have health issues with their cattle due to stray currents
and swimming pools have had these issues as well, as Mike Holt and others are familiar with.

part of that discussion thread is here:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=168038

What the utility company's employee in my area calls "crossover current."

I have mentioned the two sections of the code that this pertains to,
both 250.50 and 250.52 when asking the question.

Also, i'm not certain that your proposed solution, which can be cost prohibitive
if even feasible, may be the only answer to this dilemma
and I am still hoping someone can provide some insight on whether my proposed solution
of re-routing is valid and code compliant.

Looking foremost for Safety not only as an equipment ground
but also for health reasons mitigating the magnetic fields,
yet assuring it is compliant with code in my area.

If yourself or anyone questions the level of those magnetic fields affecting one's health
or feels there is no relevance to safety,
I'd be happy to share greater information (scientifically studied, by major organizations
like World Health Organization, Environmental Protection Agency, epidemiological as well)
as an aside in perhaps a separate topic if the moderator accepts that or can just contact me directly.

Cigarette smoking, Radon and other forms of radiation or invisible pollution was also once mocked as harmless. :slaphead:

Not here for controversy nor debate, in either case whether you realize it's harmful or not,
the current is inappropriate and should not be on one's plumbing at home.
No reason to charge the pipes throughout the home to satisfy grounding or bonding
with creating an equilibrium for any potential difference in voltage.

In fact, by charging these pipes, if one comes in contact with any other metals that are grounded in a home
at the same time they are in contact with their plumbing in this scenario,
one can increase the risk of carrying this current through their body.

At this time and for the relevance of this post,
I am only looking to reconfigure this grounding and bonding setup
with these types of homes to mitigate this higher current on the grounding line to stay compliant irrelevant to the high magnetic fields it generates and whether one deems that harmful or not.

Thank you for your time and responses.:angel:

 

[mikegbuf]

That solution may not work....

That solution may not work....

Dig the water pipe up, at least 10' from the house and install a section of non-metallic piping.

In this case, only have 6 feet to where it T's off from main line, and not the 10 feet you've suggested,
and correct me if i'm wrong #2) the resistance would be much greater with the grounding rod then this path to the water meter even with the plastic section of piping or having it insulated.

Therefore, the current would continue to run on this ground line, am i right?
Would the neutral to ground at the panel take the current instead or would it continue to flow to the meter?

thanks

 

[mikegbuf]

Iwire, while this sort of current flow is pretty typical, I think it is almost an example of what the NEC calls 'objectionable current'. It is clearly current, flowing on bonded metal that is not expected to carry current, caused by multiple bonds between neutral and the bonded metal. The only thing that makes this _not_ fit the picture is that the multiple bonds happen at multiple separate premises separated by wiring not under the control of NEC codes.

mikegbuf: Unless you understand the physics of what you are doing, then you really are being a 'snake oil' salesman. People can argue back and forth about the health effects of stray currents and 60Hz magnetic fields, but the physics of what can reasonably be done to eliminate the bulk of the stray currents is pretty clear. You need to identify and remove parallel paths of current flow, and make sure that any current flow is balanced by near by return current flow in the opposite direction.

The current that you find problematic is caused by the connection to common metal piping. The solution that you propose does not eliminate this connection, and thus will not eliminate this parallel neutral current flow. At most you will change the shape of the parallel current path, and perhaps move the bulk of the 'current loop' outside of the home.

Since the NEC _requires_ that you bond interior metallic water piping systems, and requires that you use all available grounding electrodes, to eliminate this parallel current path you need to do something such as Don describes, in order to _eliminate_ the common metallic water piping path.

-Jon

In regards to your statement
"The solution that you propose does not eliminate this connection, and thus will not eliminate this parallel neutral current flow. At most you will change the shape of the parallel current path, and perhaps move the bulk of the 'current loop' outside of the home."

I am proposing eliminating this connection from electrical box to water meter, and replacing it with one from electric box to outside water line that's closer to the box. Also, I do want to move the bulk of the "current loop" outside of the home." that would be the purpose, move the current outside the home and not have it run inside.

Also i believe that my proposed solution does address ""that you bond interior metallic water piping systems, and that you use all available grounding electrodes" as well as satisfies grounding. What a I missing here?

Reason I asked the question is because I don't know and need assistance.. :ashamed1:

 

[mikegbuf]

YES

YES

That may be objectionable to you but it is normal. It is a byproduct of the water line being being electrically parallel to the homes service neutral conductor.


About the only way to move the resulting magnetic field would be to move the service disconnecting means and connection from it to the water line outside the home.

Personally I think you are selling snake oil but to each their own.

AND I WHOLEHEARTLY AGREE WITH YOUR QUOTE:

Most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated;
therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.

 

[mikegbuf]

ALSO since i have time right now, here's another reference

ALSO since i have time right now, here's another reference

AND I WHOLEHEARTLY AGREE WITH YOUR QUOTE:

Most systems work best if they are kept simple rather than made complicated;
therefore simplicity should be a key goal in design and unnecessary complexity should be avoided.

As Tom Baker as posted/ stated:

[h=2]Re: Bonding jumper accross residential water meter - (revisi[/h]

Where are the water meters located?
Does the metallic water pipe qualify as a grounding electrode per 250.52?
If there is not ten feet of metal pipe in contact with the earth then you do not have a grounding elctrode, and your connection is a bonding connection per 250.104

However Mike Holt has an excellent video "Open Neutrals-city of miami" where it shows fires started in houses where the meter has been pulled, by open neutrals in the house next door. the unbalanced neutral current is trying to find its way back to the source. Since the neutral is open, its going on the metallic objects in the house. the vidoe shows nails in the wall glowing red hot from voltages around 9-15 volts! this same condution could happen in your houses if the continuity in the meter was not present and if the neutral was open. What had happeded in Miami is the fire dept was having residential fires where the meter was pulled (no electricty), and did not know why.
the video is a real eye opener on the dangers of objectionable current. You can get it from Mike Holts office for $20.00, please call Sarina at 1-888-NEC-Code to order. the video is from the point of view of the fire department, so you need the following to understand what is happening.
Also order the Mike Holt 2002 Grounding and Bonding Text, there is a good explaination of current on metallic water pipes with an open neutral.​

Moderator-Washington State
Ancora Imparo

and Karl Riley is on point when he states:

[h=2]Re: Bonding jumper accross residential water meter - (revisi[/h]

It seems to me there are some contradictory ideas expressed on this topic. So please take a look at these comments:

1) If the meter is inside the house, the bonding across the meter is required in order to have the pipe on the street side of the meter, which is inside the house, bonded to the service grounded conductor. In other words, if that part of the pipe gets energized, it will cause a breaker to be tripped since the current will go back to the panel and through the SE cable to the transformer.

2) Once the required bonding is done, the pipe will carry some neutral current in a parallel path back to the transformer. There seems to be confusion as to whether this is desirable or not. In normal operation, this will cause some degree of magnetic field both from the pipes and equally on the service drop, depending on how many amps. This can be objectionable.

3) In the abnormal situation of an open neutral the neutral current will follow the pipes through a neighbor's neutral to get back to the transformer. There are pros and cons:

Pro: As a backup for the neutral, the electrical service may operate indefinitely within safe voltage ranges, depending on the plumbing connections, etc.

Con: This "backup" will mask the dangerous situation of the open neutral, postponing repair. The water pipes are not an electrically designed system; it is a water system, so there are no electrical standards for the prevention of arcing and the carbonization dangers that Mike Holt's video points out. There is danger of electrocution for plumbers if anyone separates or cuts the pipe, since there will be 120V across the cut.There will be huge magnetic fields set up in the water pipes (which will also be present in the neighbor's house and his service drop) and the service drop, since all the neutral will be shunted.

We may loose sight of the fact that the grounding electrode system is mainly there to disperse lightning strikes, and the water pipe electrode can be replaced with a ground rod according to Code.
Comments?
Karl

AND WITH THIS LINK MIKE HOLT FURTHER EXPLAINS:

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/NECArticle250Sections250.6-250.12~20020125.htm

DANGER: Objectionable neutral current can cause electrocution and property damage as well as deaths from fires.


Electrocution. The touch potential on the metal parts of an electrical system as well as the building structure can easily be in excess of 30 V to earth when the fault current path is used to carry neutral current or if a person gets in series with this path.

Death from electric shock (electrocution) can occur when the touch potential (voltage between the metal parts of the electrical system and the earth) is above 30 V RMS resulting in as little as 30 milliamperes of current to flow though the body. Alternating current, particularly 60 Hz disrupts the hearts electrical circuitry causing it to go in to ventricular fibrillation, which prevents the blood from circulation through the brain, resulting in death in a matter of minutes.


Fire Hazard. Fire is created when heat rises to a level that is sufficient to cause ignition of adjacent combustible material in an area that is oxygenated. In an electrical system, heat is generated whenever current flows. Improper wiring resulting in neutral current flows through the fault current path can cause the temperature at loose connections to rise to a level that can cause a fire. In addition, arcing at loose connections particularly in dangerous areas containing easily ignitable and explosive gases, vapors, or dust.
​

​

 

[jxofaltrds]

Isolate the interior lines from the public supply line.

AND remove the GEC from the public supply line.

250.6(A) says that you 'shall' prevent objectionable current.

IMHO that trumps 250.50. I also believe that you have an obligation to mitigate a hazard until it can be 'fixed'.

 

[winnie]

In regards to your statement
"The solution that you propose does not eliminate this connection, and thus will not eliminate this parallel neutral current flow. At most you will change the shape of the parallel current path, and perhaps move the bulk of the 'current loop' outside of the home."

I am proposing eliminating this connection from electrical box to water meter, and replacing it with one from electric box to outside water line that's closer to the box. Also, I do want to move the bulk of the "current loop" outside of the home." that would be the purpose, move the current outside the home and not have it run inside.

Also i believe that my proposed solution does address ""that you bond interior metallic water piping systems, and that you use all available grounding electrodes" as well as satisfies grounding. What a I missing here?

What you are missing is that the magnetic fields that you are objecting to are not caused by the connection to the common metallic water pipe, but rather are caused by _local unbalanced currents_ facilitated by the connection to the common metallic water piping. While it is a common shorthand to say that the common metallic water pipe is causing the problem (I think I even said that), what is happening in detail is as follows:

1) Current always flows from its source, through the load, and back to its source. It follows _all_ available paths to get from one source terminal to the other.
2)When current flows through a wire it makes a magnetic field.
3)In the ideal case, all current flowing on any one of the wires in your 'service drop' will be matched by current flowing _in the opposite direction_ by current flowing in the other wires.
4)When currents flows in opposite directions, the magnetic field produced by those currents cancel out. So in an ideal service drop the are only magnetic fields measured between and near to the wires; at any large distance compared to the spacing of the wires, the net magnetic current is zero.
5)Because of the _required_ grounding connection to the neutral at the electrical service box, additional paths are made available for neutral current.
6)Any neutral current that flows via one of these alternative paths will itself produce a magnetic field, and since that neutral current is not available for balancing in the service drop, the service drop will end up producing net magnetic field.
7)In the case of common metallic water pipes, _large_ currents may flow through these alternative paths. This current is not balanced by nearby current flowing in the opposite direction, which means large magnetic fields, on the service drop, grounding electrode conductors, and underground piping.

In your proposed change, you will move the connection point for the common metal piping, but you will leave this current flow path. The 'loop' formed by service drop, service wiring, grounding electrode conductor, and common piping will remain, but you will change its shape. Current will flow in this 'loop' unbalanced by nearby current flowing in the opposite direction, so this loop will continue to produce net magnetic fields. At most you will move a portion of this loop away from the home, which might make a slight improvement in the magnetic field levels inside the home, things like the service conductors running down the side of the home will continue to carry unbalanced current, and will continue to produce magnetic fields that go into the home.

If you are imagining that the point of connection between grounding electrode conductor and water pipe is itself the problem, and that moving that connection away from the house will improve things in the house, then you don't understand the physics of current flow and magnetic field production. Before you make any sort of recommendations you will need to really understand that basic physics.

-Jon

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In this case, only have 6 feet to where it T's off from main line, and not the 10 feet you've suggested,
and correct me if i'm wrong #2) the resistance would be much greater with the grounding rod then this path to the water meter even with the plastic section of piping or having it insulated.

Therefore, the current would continue to run on this ground line, am i right?
Would the neutral to ground at the panel take the current instead or would it continue to flow to the meter?

thanks

I am not sure that the path via the ground rod would have a much greater resistance than the path via the water pipe with a non-metallic section in it. In any case the only voltage available to drive the current on the water pipe is the voltage drop on the service grounded conductor. I would think that even a short path through the earth would drastically reduce the current flow on the water pipe.

I only suggested 10' so that the water pipe would still a grounding electrode. You could completely replace the underground water service with non-metallic pipe, assuming that you local plumbing code would permit that.

 

[mikegbuf]

Refreshing to know that it's acknowledged while others mock / believe it's insignific

Refreshing to know that it's acknowledged while others mock / believe it's insignific

Iwire, while this sort of current flow is pretty typical, I think it is almost an example of what the NEC calls 'objectionable current'. It is clearly current, flowing on bonded metal that is not expected to carry current, caused by multiple bonds between neutral and the bonded metal. The only thing that makes this _not_ fit the picture is that the multiple bonds happen at multiple separate premises separated by wiring not under the control of NEC codes.

mikegbuf: Unless you understand the physics of what you are doing, then you really are being a 'snake oil' salesman. People can argue back and forth about the health effects of stray currents and 60Hz magnetic fields, but the physics of what can reasonably be done to eliminate the bulk of the stray currents is pretty clear. You need to identify and remove parallel paths of current flow, and make sure that any current flow is balanced by near by return current flow in the opposite direction.

The current that you find problematic is caused by the connection to common metal piping. The solution that you propose does not eliminate this connection, and thus will not eliminate this parallel neutral current flow. At most you will change the shape of the parallel current path, and perhaps move the bulk of the 'current loop' outside of the home.

Since the NEC _requires_ that you bond interior metallic water piping systems, and requires that you use all available grounding electrodes, to eliminate this parallel current path you need to do something such as Don describes, in order to _eliminate_ the common metallic water piping path.

-Jon

Silencing the Fields​

​

​

Wow, I just read a great book and I learned so many things. What amazes me is that this book "Silencing the Fields" was written by Edward A. Leeper, MA who is a physicist! What does he know about electricity? I was sent this book to review and when I saw the cover and thought, yea right another crack-pot on electromagnetic fields. But I was wrong so wrong. I don't know how to say this except, that if you?re interested in electrical safety from electric shock and fires then you need to read this book to understand how electrical systems operate; both for premises wiring and utility wiring. This book does a great job in explaining how electrical systems in the United States operate and how the NEC and the NESC ground practices impact current flow resulting in elevated magnetic fields. Ed's slant is on electromagnetic fields and my concern is the cause of these magnetic fields (current flowing where it?s not supposed to). You see if you have elevated electromagnetic fields, there is a problem, there is voltage on metal parts (shock hazard) and there is the possibly of a fire. I can't think of a more dangerous practice than to take a current carrying conductor (neutral) and bond it to the metal parts of the electrical system, but this is a NEC requirement (I'm sure pushed by the electric utilities). This practice of bonding a current carrying conductor to metal parts is especially dangerous in building that has a swimming pool. I intend on making a proposal to prohibit the bonding of the neutral to metal parts at any location in a building, but unless people understand electrical systems, they won't understand the danger or the proposal. It's sad that the NEC actually prohibits the separating of the neutral and equipment ground from the utility transformer [250.24(B)] and the practice of electric utility to connect the primary utility neutral to the secondary neutral (utility code) is another dangerous practice. This book is a must read for everybody who cares to understand their job. Go to http://silencingthefields.com/ to order the book. The book covers the following topics: High Magnetic Fields - Avoiding them or Reducing them Water Line Currents - Do they Matter? Wiring Errors and Anomalies Power Company Wiring - Distribution Lines Power Company Wiring - Transmission Lines Magnetic Shielding and "Conduit Shielding" Available Magnetic Field Meters (35 makes and models in the range from $40 to $730) I have no interest in the book, I don't know Ed Leeper, and so I have no personal gain. I just want to let you know that there is someone out there that really understands what causes electromagnetic fields (objectionable current - 250.6], how to trouble shoot the problem and how to make an installation safe. If you remove the electromagnetic fields then you will make the installation safer from electric shock. I only care about electrical safety. God Bless, Mike P.S. If you get the book, please let me know what you think. Mike Holt?s Comment: If you have any comments or feedback, please let me know, Mike@MikeHolt.com

 

[GoldDigger]

One unavoidable consequence of keeping ground and neutral separate is that you have an ungrounded system and must deal with that properly, otherwise a second fault could energize exposed metal without necessarily having an adequate return path to clear the combined faults!
Or else we go to the European system of requiring better than 1 ohm earth electrode resistances, tested regularly.

 

[mikegbuf]

Not sure how we are having a disconnect here, we may be on the same page

Not sure how we are having a disconnect here, we may be on the same page

What you are missing is that the magnetic fields that you are objecting to are not caused by the connection to the common metallic water pipe, but rather are caused by _local unbalanced currents_ facilitated by the connection to the common metallic water piping. While it is a common shorthand to say that the common metallic water pipe is causing the problem (I think I even said that), what is happening in detail is as follows:

1) Current always flows from its source, through the load, and back to its source. It follows _all_ available paths to get from one source terminal to the other.
2)When current flows through a wire it makes a magnetic field.
3)In the ideal case, all current flowing on any one of the wires in your 'service drop' will be matched by current flowing _in the opposite direction_ by current flowing in the other wires.
4)When currents flows in opposite directions, the magnetic field produced by those currents cancel out. So in an ideal service drop the are only magnetic fields measured between and near to the wires; at any large distance compared to the spacing of the wires, the net magnetic current is zero.
5)Because of the _required_ grounding connection to the neutral at the electrical service box, additional paths are made available for neutral current.
6)Any neutral current that flows via one of these alternative paths will itself produce a magnetic field, and since that neutral current is not available for balancing in the service drop, the service drop will end up producing net magnetic field.
7)In the case of common metallic water pipes, _large_ currents may flow through these alternative paths. This current is not balanced by nearby current flowing in the opposite direction, which means large magnetic fields, on the service drop, grounding electrode conductors, and underground piping.

In your proposed change, you will move the connection point for the common metal piping, but you will leave this current flow path. The 'loop' formed by service drop, service wiring, grounding electrode conductor, and common piping will remain, but you will change its shape. Current will flow in this 'loop' unbalanced by nearby current flowing in the opposite direction, so this loop will continue to produce net magnetic fields. At most you will move a portion of this loop away from the home, which might make a slight improvement in the magnetic field levels inside the home, things like the service conductors running down the side of the home will continue to carry unbalanced current, and will continue to produce magnetic fields that go into the home.

If you are imagining that the point of connection between grounding electrode conductor and water pipe is itself the problem, and that moving that connection away from the house will improve things in the house, then you don't understand the physics of current flow and magnetic field production. Before you make any sort of recommendations you will need to really understand that basic physics.

-Jon

I've understood everything you had mentioned, and am aware of what causes magnetic fields - an imbalance load with current not being returned fully onto parallel neutral to net the field to zero with any circuit including the main line coming into a dwelling.

I do understand that I am only re-routing the current, which is why i termed it "re-routing" and not ridding of that current that should instead be on the neutral. That is my solution to avoid the magnetic fields and objectionable current from being in my home as a safety hazard or issue, since I lack the understanding of how to balance the load and prevent that current from running on the grounding line between electric box and water meter when trying to satisfy code.

Still seeking that answer or insight, and again which is why I'm on this forum asking. I don't claim to be an expert and I've been told by many that at least my level of understanding of electrical is beyond most electricians. I don't feel that way, and am not surprised that's the case after working with many - not their fault, it's not taught, understood and most are unaware.

I'm just trying to gain a better handle on the short comings with the design of our electric system here in U.S. and how to mitigate these types of issues that arise from that type of setup.:?

 

[mikegbuf]

Interesting...Price of Safety, and Health for Convenience

Interesting...Price of Safety, and Health for Convenience

One unavoidable consequence of keeping ground and neutral separate is that you have an ungrounded system and must deal with that properly, otherwise a second fault could energize exposed metal without necessarily having an adequate return path to clear the combined faults!
Or else we go to the European system of requiring better than 1 ohm earth electrode resistances, tested regularly.

Interesting...Price of Safety, and Health for Convenience

So we accept the casual relationships from studies of having greater incidences of Cancer, Alzheimers, ALS, and other neurological issues including blood pressure issues, diabetes and the list goes on.. because we don't want to monitor and maintain a very important aspect of our lives- the use of concentrated energy, where it flows, how it's isolated, responsibly used, etc. :blink:

Just think of a magnet under a table top with metal shavings on it, what does the magnet do to the shavings, move them? they attract together? What may be possible with red blood cells that have iron at their core? Can anyone say inflammation, swelling, poor circulation and list goes on... but of course that's snake oil I forgot :slaphead:

 

[mikegbuf]

To no avail....

To no avail....

I am not sure that the path via the ground rod would have a much greater resistance than the path via the water pipe with a non-metallic section in it. In any case the only voltage available to drive the current on the water pipe is the voltage drop on the service grounded conductor. I would think that even a short path through the earth would drastically reduce the current flow on the water pipe.

I only suggested 10' so that the water pipe would still a grounding electrode. You could completely replace the underground water service with non-metallic pipe, assuming that you local plumbing code would permit that.

spoke to plumbing department, electrical department of town, and get run-around, finger pointing blame to someone else with round robin, and "everybody has it." and "what do you propose we do about it" "not our problem" "start in your home and then if still have issue call back" with numerous calls to address as it goes unresolved... seems unfeasible, not willing, and may not be the simplest fix.

We last left off that they were not concerned if i informed neighbors, community, association or media. Seems Dead End and not sure that's the best way to handle it anyways.

 

[winnie]

I've understood everything you had mentioned, and am aware of what causes magnetic fields - an imbalance load with current not being returned fully onto parallel neutral to net the field to zero with any circuit including the main line coming into a dwelling.

I do understand that I am only re-routing the current, which is why i termed it "re-routing" and not ridding of that current that should instead be on the neutral. That is my solution to avoid the magnetic fields and objectionable current from being in my home as a safety hazard or issue, since I lack the understanding of how to balance the load and prevent that current from running on the grounding line between electric box and water meter when trying to satisfy code.

You may have been told that you have a high level of understanding of electrical systems, but you are mis-using terms in ways that suggest that you are missing the point.

There is not need to understand 'how to balance the load'. In an isolated circuit with no alternative current flow paths, the current flow _must_ balance. That is how current flow works.

If you re-route the 'objectionable' part of the current flow outside of your house, you remove only one part of the problem. You leave unbalanced current flowing on your service drop and service wiring, and that unbalanced current flow will create magnetic fields which will extend into your home. If your goal is to reduce the magnetic field strength caused by the electrical service to your home, you will get a much bigger improvement by eliminating the common metal water pipe path.

Additionally, I believe that you are making the very human error of shrill panic about a potential danger, while ignoring real and well understood dangers that are much greater in magnitude. This doesn't mean that the potential danger isn't real...just that you need to keep things in perspective. Grounding provides protection from many shock hazards, and protects equipment from some forms of excessive voltage. There are real benefits from grounding.

-Jon

 

[mikegbuf]

How would you accomplish what you suggest?

How would you accomplish what you suggest?

You may have been told that you have a high level of understanding of electrical systems, but you are mis-using terms in ways that suggest that you are missing the point.

There is not need to understand 'how to balance the load'. In an isolated circuit with no alternative current flow paths, the current flow _must_ balance. That is how current flow works.

If you re-route the 'objectionable' part of the current flow outside of your house, you remove only one part of the problem. You leave unbalanced current flowing on your service drop and service wiring, and that unbalanced current flow will create magnetic fields which will extend into your home. If your goal is to reduce the magnetic field strength caused by the electrical service to your home, you will get a much bigger improvement by eliminating the common metal water pipe path.

Additionally, I believe that you are making the very human error of shrill panic about a potential danger, while ignoring real and well understood dangers that are much greater in magnitude. This doesn't mean that the potential danger isn't real...just that you need to keep things in perspective. Grounding provides protection from many shock hazards, and protects equipment from some forms of excessive voltage. There are real benefits from grounding.

-Jon

I am not discounting grounding, nor have i circumvented the need to ground, nor have I suggested doing so.
If that was case i would have just disconnected that ground wire to eliminate the fields and be done with it.
i realize there is the need to keep the system property grounded for safety
yet in a manner that doesn't create these high fields and objectionable current.

I don't believe that the current flowing on the ground line
is causing any magnetic field issues in the home, further down or up the path
aside from that ground line connection in existence.

I believe the return current from a circuit is just splitting or being rerouted
when it flows to the panel and then out to this ground rod at that point and location,
essentially re-routing the current on the neutral
once it comes in contact with where it's bonded to the ground on the panel.

So yes the current should return on the neutral, and in this scenario it doesn't.
Which means yes that it is an imbalanced load leaving the house.
Yet that cable runs under ground, not overhead and does not affect the living quarters of house
but will contribute to imbalanced loads on the service
which can contribute to these same issues with the neighbors.

When one does not get cooperation from the township, or perhaps even their own neighbors
since most are unaware and once made aware, it's not well acknowledged ..
therefore the only available option left is to take responsibility and control of their own residence and home
and put safeguards in place to insulate themselves for safety's sake.
That is in fact what the code's purpose should be and should accomplish.
An equipment ground, or bonding is not the only safety consideration.
One does not have to be shocked with a potential difference in voltage to be harmed
that would be an immediate harm, a much slower deterioration is when current runs through the body
to create changes in one's health that can lead to some pretty serious consequences including
abnormal heart rhythm/ arrhythmia, heart attack, strokes, anxiety and list goes on.

Perhaps this current is re-routed on the panel,
because it may be the path of least resistance relative to
going back onto the neutral with service, perhaps due to heavy loads,
or also may be due to high resistance with current ground rod
since building is greater then 15 years old; when these ground rods corrode
and increase their resistance with the soil.
Does that make sense?

You mention,
"you will get a much bigger improvement by eliminating the common metal water pipe path."

My question was how do i accomplish that when code wants the pipes bonded...
Am I correct that the second ground line that i've connected to my internal pipes from home ,
accomplishes that bond to assure an equal potential with the voltage of the electrical system,
even if the second ground line as i've explained is disconnected?

Are you suggesting that disconnecting from the water meter/ line,
as I defined as the first ground (from electric box to water meter)
could be satisfied with the current ground rod,
or with the addition of a second ground rod
and still be code compliant?

The issue that i see is if this current is disconnected with the water pipes
versus kept connected and re-routed outside the home
it could pose a safety issue if a broken neutral situation develops
and an alternative path for current is not provided to exit the home.

Does that make sense?
Anything I'm missing as a try and explain the situation
in the best way I know how, with my current knowledge.

Perhaps you could help me by commenting on how to accomplish or satisfy code
-both bonding, grounding, and yet not have a net objectionable current...
In a feasible, and affordable manner?

Not sure if there is a solution other than the one I proposed.
Moving the service next to the water meter or vice versa,
would be quite an undertaking
involving an association governing these units, the township,
and all their willingness and cooperation, etc.

and not sure it's necessary
with my current setup that I can potentially rewire/ re-route path
to keep that objectionable current outside this home,
on outside lines versus in living quarters.

I like the constructive criticism yet was hoping for some insight
and maybe our electrical system is flawed by design,
incorporating the plumbing system
without addressing the responsible use and safety of the currents
that are running to complete these circuits (both water lines and electrical lines).

There seems to be a need for plumbing and electrical professionals alike
to work together to accomplish common goals
unless we can prevent the use of plumbing lines in designing our circuitry in this country.
until then, we need a revision in the code to take into account these safety factors
and grant variances to keep compliance and foremost safety in our communities and neighborhoods.
That is what i am beginning to learn from professionals that have been addressing these issues
for decades.

I do thank you for trying to assist me, and i'm hoping I am understanding you.