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Objectionable Current - Water main

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mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
Right because the messenger is the grounded/neutral conductor. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are asking? 🤔
Because of this arrangement, doesn't the home(s) service take the brunt of any fault caused by the utility ?
 
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Because of this arrangement, doesn't the home(s) service take the brunt of any fault caused by the utility ?
Can you be more specific about this fault? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where any significant primary fault current would be traveling into the building. My biggest concern would be an Open primary neutral which may elevate the potential of the grounded conductor in the building, that is why I would prefer they do not make the primary to secondary neutral connection.
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
Can you be more specific about this fault? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where any significant primary fault current would be traveling into the building. My biggest concern would be an Open primary neutral which may elevate the potential of the grounded conductor in the building, that is why I would prefer they do not make the primary to secondary neutral connection.
How about a lightning strike on the utility line ?
 
How about a lightning strike on the utility line ?
To which conductor? If it it's the phase conductor I see it the same either way. If it hits the utility neutral then I suppose on paper it has a direct path into the building because of the primary to secondary neutral connection. However there may not be any increase overall risk as there are other things that play, like the low resistance of the utility primary to Earth, the fact that lightning doesn't travel very far on conductors, etc. I think there is an argument to be made that MGM systems are better at dealing with lightning events. Are you aware of any statistics that show otherwise? I think I'm going to have to ask for evidence before just accepting a claim that lightning damage is more prevalent on MGM systems with a primary to secondary neutral tie.
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
To which conductor? If it it's the phase conductor I see it the same either way. If it hits the utility neutral then I suppose on paper it has a direct path into the building because of the primary to secondary neutral connection. However there may not be any increase overall risk as there are other things that play, like the low resistance of the utility primary to Earth, the fact that lightning doesn't travel very far on conductors, etc. I think there is an argument to be made that MGM systems are better at dealing with lightning events. Are you aware of any statistics that show otherwise? I think I'm going to have to ask for evidence before just accepting a claim that lightning damage is more prevalent on MGM systems with a primary to secondary neutral tie.
I do appreciate your detail responses you have made and the understanding that we both agree on how services should be connected to the utility. And how expensive it would be to provide a separate transformer for every service to make it safer.
 
I do appreciate your detail responses you have made and the understanding that we both agree on how services should be connected to the utility. And how expensive it would be to provide a separate transformer for every service to make it safer.
My preference is this: I don't really care about the MGN, but I would like the secondary neutral to be isolated from the primary neutral. I would also like an underground water pipe to be prohibited from being used as an GE and a dielectric union used .
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
My preference is this: I don't really care about the MGN, but I would like the secondary neutral to be isolated from the primary neutral. I would also like an underground water pipe to be prohibited from being used as an GE and a dielectric union used .
I agree 100% ... Last year I replaced my old, galvanized pipe water service with copper and a dielectric union.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
My preference is this: I don't really care about the MGN, but I would like the secondary neutral to be isolated from the primary neutral.
If both the secondary and primary neutral are earthed (grounded), then they will be at (approximately) the same potential. What is the advantage of having them only connected through earth, rather than solidly bonded together?

If POCOs install ground rods at their poles (do they?) are you wanting only the primary neutral connected to their ground rod, with the secondary neutral relying solely on the premises GES for earthing? Basically making every service ungrounded on the utility side of things? Or are you proposing that the POCO should install separate ground rods for the primary and secondary neutrals, so they still provide a grounded service?

Cheers, Wayne
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
If both the secondary and primary neutral are earthed (grounded), then they will be at (approximately) the same potential. What is the advantage of having them only connected through earth, rather than solidly bonded together?

If POCOs install ground rods at their poles (do they?) are you wanting only the primary neutral connected to their ground rod, with the secondary neutral relying solely on the premises GES for earthing? Basically making every service ungrounded on the utility side of things? Or are you proposing that the POCO should install separate ground rods for the primary and secondary neutrals, so they still provide a grounded service?

Cheers, Wayne
If you decide to eliminate the grounded connection between the primary and secondary on the transformer. Don't forget to remove the uninsulated neutral wire from the messenger wire service drop and provide an insulated neutral to the service drop.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
If both the secondary and primary neutral are earthed (grounded), then they will be at (approximately) the same potential. What is the advantage of having them only connected through earth, rather than solidly bonded together?

If POCOs install ground rods at their poles (do they?) are you wanting only the primary neutral connected to their ground rod, with the secondary neutral relying solely on the premises GES for earthing? Basically making every service ungrounded on the utility side of things? Or are you proposing that the POCO should install separate ground rods for the primary and secondary neutrals, so they still provide a grounded service?

Cheers, Wayne
They install a rod or a pole butt electrode at every pole that has a transformer and no more than 1200' apart along the pole line.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
If you decide to eliminate the grounded connection between the primary and secondary on the transformer. Don't forget to remove the uninsulated neutral wire from the messenger wire service drop and provide an insulated neutral to the service drop.

I don't know how you think that the neutral on a service drop uses the messenger wire between poles as its connection. In mid-span drops they are indeed connected to a messenger that runs between poles, but that is only for support. In every instance I can think of, there are 3 wire (single phase) and 4 wire (3 phase) insulated secondaries running on racks from pole to pole, fed by a transformer. With single phase, the center of the three is always the neutral. Each drop taps off of all three conductors.

-Hal
 
If both the secondary and primary neutral are earthed (grounded), then they will be at (approximately) the same potential. What is the advantage of having them only connected through earth, rather than solidly bonded together?

If POCOs install ground rods at their poles (do they?) are you wanting only the primary neutral connected to their ground rod, with the secondary neutral relying solely on the premises GES for earthing? Basically making every service ungrounded on the utility side of things? Or are you proposing that the POCO should install separate ground rods for the primary and secondary neutrals, so they still provide a grounded service?

Cheers, Wayne
The potential issue I see with primary and secondary neutrals solidly bonded is the secondary neutral could see a rise in potential with a utility open neutral. You can come up with scenarios where this connection would be beneficial however.

You raise a good point about the earthing of the two systems. I dont think it would be real practical to have a separate ground rod for each system. Perhaps the primary would need be earthed at a pole with a secondary?

Although I stated my preference, I fully admit there are advantages and disadvantages to any arrangement you can come up with. What does drive me crazy however is neutral current flowing on piping systems considering how vehemently opposed to neutral current flowing on things the NEC is on pretty much everything else. They got rid of 3 wire feeders to detached structures, but for some reason when it comes to the neutral current on water pipes they are like "yeah, whatevs...."
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
How long does it take to stop a freight train ? This grounding and bonding mind set is ingrained in our minds and NEC for a long time. This is what we have been taught from the beginning of our learning experience in the trade. But the introduction of the GFCI and AFCI has now exposed the weaknesses of that theory. So now is the time to reconsider that mindset.
 
How long does it take to stop a freight train ? This grounding and bonding mind set is ingrained in our minds and NEC for a long time. This is what we have been taught from the beginning of our learning experience in the trade. But the introduction of the GFCI and AFCI has now exposed the weaknesses of that theory. So now is the time to reconsider that mindset.
I dont follow what you are saying here. Would you mind trying again with more specificity?
 

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
Occupation
Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
I dont follow what you are saying here. Would you mind trying again with more specificity?
I think a good place to start would be to look at the use of the water service bonding requirement in the NEC. When I upgraded my water service, I installed dielectric union, but still kept the bond to the interior water piping. So, let's talk about that for starters.

Since everything is on plastic, why should we still be required to bond ?
 
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