Odd inspector calls

[sfav8r]

We had the following items called on an inspection. I really don't understand the calls, maybe someone can elucidate me. All we did was upgrade the panel. No work was done in the home. SFD with 200a service.

1) #12 wire is being fed with 15a circuit breaker. Replace circuit breaker .
2) There is a #12 wire in the panel that is spliced to a #14 wire in the junction box in the garage. Remove #12 wire and replace with #14 wire. (FYI, this was on a 15a breaker)
3) Gas pipe is only bonded where it enters the home. Add gas pipe bonding at HW heater.
4) There is only 1 15a lighting circuit. Two 15a lighting circuits are required.
5) Confirm name plate rating on electric stove. Current 30a circuit may not be sufficient.

#1,2 So, for my thinking, #1 makes no sense to me at all. #2 I understand his point but I do not believe this is an NEC issue.
#3 What? It is bonded as required and we need another one at the HW heater?
#4 what code is this?
#5 What the heck, now we have to run a new circuit from the panel to the upstairs kitchen for a stove that has been there for 8 years?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[cowboyjwc]

And there is a good argument against combo inspectors.

 

[480sparky]

Call and ask for Code references to back up the requests.

 

[Ponchik]

My question to you: if you were on site with him why did you not challenge his code citations?

If you don't mind me asking, what city was this in?

Added:::As suggested earlier, call and ask to see a code reference for each item. If he does give a code reference study them and make sure he is correct and the code section does apply to your installation.

 

[sfav8r]

My question to you: if you were on site with him why did you not challenge his code citations?

If you don't mind me asking, what city was this in?

Added:::As suggested earlier, call and ask to see a code reference for each item. If he does give a code reference study them and make sure he is correct and the code section does apply to your installation.

We were not on-site, only the GC who was doing the bathroom. (I previously said we weren't working in the house, but we actually did put a new plug in the bathroom). I have called and asked to speak with the inspector and will update this post when I do so. I'd rather not mention the jurisdiction since I'm nagging and you are only getting my side of the story. I will say that it is not San Francisco where we are based. As referenced earlier, SF uses Electrical Only inspectors and they are generally very knowledgeable. This job is one of the suburbs of SF and they use combo inspectors. I don't know how they can expect one guy (gal) to know the codes for so many trades. I'm doing well to keep track of the NEC and local amendments.

 

[jbelectric777]

posting reply to svav

posting reply to svav

hi svav, I'm a nj sub code official, I can help you. as long as your permit only states "replace 200amp service only" that's all you need to do, your not responsible for other violations but for whats in front of you is required to be correct (as far as what you connect) the inspector is probably "badge happy" and always wanted to be a cop, but you tell him to open his uniform construction code manual for your state and show you where it says your responsible for the whole house. That's like saying I replaced a duplex outlet now all code violations need be fixed. Look, don't cause any un needed waves with any AHJ but he sounds like a private third party guy to me, if you get nowhere then call the county or state uniform construction code board of appeals ( I won tons of em) and maybe he'll back off. In my 32 yrs Ive dealt with this crap and say UCC board of appeals and they usually see it your way. Just explain you only changed the service and feeder and branch circuits existing in the dwelling you have no contract for, and he cannot make you do anything to any circuitry other than the service which consists of: seu entrance cable strapping and connections in meter and main distribution panel, grounding and bonding, and branch circuit OCP devices. It happens a lot with less experienced inspectors, they have it wrong thinking they can order what they want, well like it or not it just aint true. That's why we have a UCC - Uniform everywhere. Let me know how you make out and good luck. Jim Benson

 

[infinity]

If the inspector doesn't know that #12 AWG conductors are permitted on a 15 amp circuit he should be looking for other work.

 

[fmtjfw]

If the inspector doesn't know that #12 AWG conductors are permitted on a 15 amp circuit he should be looking for other work.

Prerhaps he believes that #14 is larger than #12

 

[MHElectric]

And there is a good argument against combo inspectors.

True true true! I dont know how anybody that knows everything about every single part of one trade, MUCH LESS every trade. This is where 90% of the shirt pocket rules come from.I deal with this every time I work outside the city I live in. Small towns seem to be better than working in county areas.

 

[sfav8r]

I'm still waiting for a return call from the inspector, but I'm curious if any other jurisdictions out there are still requiring bonding of the GAS pipe at the hot water heater. If so, are they requiring bonding as per 250.104(B)? I don't
see how a jurisdiction can require bonding ONLY at the HW heater, but I suppose they could have an amendment requiring it in addition to the NEC requirements under 250.104(B)

 

[suemarkp]

#4 and #5 may be valid. You need 3VA per square foot of "general lighting" circuits in a dwelling. A 15A circuit can provide 1800VA of power, so this would be adequate for a 600sq ft area. How large is the area being served? Is there some other circuit that could be counted as general lighting (e.g. any other multi-receptacle/lighting circuit except for the small appliance circuits or the bathroom circuit)?

What is the "stove"? Is it an oven, a cooktop, or combination (which is usually called a range)? A range over 8KW requires a minimum 40A circuit, and I've never seen a range that is less than 10KW. A cooktop or oven is most likely fine with a 30A circuit as long as that one circuit is not feeding both of them.

I'm not sure what your area is like when you upgrade a panel. Can you just change it and leave all the existing violations intact, or do you need to fix some basic stuff... Did you have to upgrade to AFCI's?

I agree there's nothing wrong with #12 on a 15A circuit or mixing 12 and 14 on a circuit unless there is a local rule prohibiting that.

 

[Hendrix]

You need 3VA per square foot of "general lighting" circuits in a dwelling.

Article please.

 

[Pharon]

Article please.

Table 220.12

 

[480sparky]

If an inspector won't allow #12 on a 15a breaker, ask him how he would handle voltage drop using #14........

 

[sfav8r]

#4 and #5 may be valid. You need 3VA per square foot of "general lighting" circuits in a dwelling. A 15A circuit can provide 1800VA of power, so this would be adequate for a 600sq ft area. How large is the area being served? Is there some other circuit that could be counted as general lighting (e.g. any other multi-receptacle/lighting circuit except for the small appliance circuits or the bathroom circuit)?

There are 3 "general circuits" that supply power to receptacles and lighting. He is asking for a minimum of two 15a circuits that ONLY serve lighting. I have never heard of this and he still hasn't returned my call so I don't know if there is a local amendments.

What is the "stove"? Is it an oven, a cooktop, or combination (which is usually called a range)? A range over 8KW requires a minimum 40A circuit, and I've never seen a range that is less than 10KW. A cooktop or oven is most likely fine with a 30A circuit as long as that one circuit is not feeding both of them.

It is a 10kw range

I'm not sure what your area is like when you upgrade a panel. Can you just change it and leave all the existing violations intact, or do you need to fix some basic stuff... Did you have to upgrade to AFCI's?

I agree there's nothing wrong with #12 on a 15A circuit or mixing 12 and 14 on a circuit unless there is a local rule prohibiting that.

My point on the range and the lighting circuit is that our scope of work is to replace the panel. Are we now supposed to run a new circuit to the top floor to replace a circuit that has been there since the house was built? I don't believe it is reasonable to request that. The work to replace the circuit is probably more expensive than replacing the panel. This kind of creeping elegance is what keeps people from doing a"small" upgrade. You try and improve something and the AHJ forces you to do a bunch of stuff you didn't plan on doing. I agree that if we find a hazard (open air splice, etc) it should be fixed, but running new circuits to split up the lighting loads and running a new circuit to service a stove when both of those itmes were done to code at the time they were done, is to me completely unreasonable.

 

[Hendrix]

Table 220.12

Thanks.

 

[Wilg]

As to the 12AWG on a 15a breaker, ran into this when I started as a combo inspector. The concern was "if they see 12AWG then they may assume a 20a replacement breaker is ok...."

I asked if we needed to inspect what "they" might do in the future? Old ideas die hard in gov't.:happyno:

Hey....watch the "combo-county-off road inspektur" bashin'....we're sinsative...

 

[480sparky]

As to the 12AWG on a 15a breaker, ran into this when I started as a combo inspector. The concern was "if they see 12AWG then they may assume a 20a replacement breaker is ok....".......

My response to this is, "Well, if 'they' think it's OK to replace it with a 20, then 'they' really aren't qualified, are 'they'?"

 

[kwired]

hi svav, I'm a nj sub code official, I can help you. as long as your permit only states "replace 200amp service only" that's all you need to do, your not responsible for other violations but for whats in front of you is required to be correct (as far as what you connect) the inspector is probably "badge happy" and always wanted to be a cop, but you tell him to open his uniform construction code manual for your state and show you where it says your responsible for the whole house. That's like saying I replaced a duplex outlet now all code violations need be fixed. Look, don't cause any un needed waves with any AHJ but he sounds like a private third party guy to me, if you get nowhere then call the county or state uniform construction code board of appeals ( I won tons of em) and maybe he'll back off. In my 32 yrs Ive dealt with this crap and say UCC board of appeals and they usually see it your way. Just explain you only changed the service and feeder and branch circuits existing in the dwelling you have no contract for, and he cannot make you do anything to any circuitry other than the service which consists of: seu entrance cable strapping and connections in meter and main distribution panel, grounding and bonding, and branch circuit OCP devices. It happens a lot with less experienced inspectors, they have it wrong thinking they can order what they want, well like it or not it just aint true. That's why we have a UCC - Uniform everywhere. Let me know how you make out and good luck. Jim Benson

A place to start may just be with the supervisor of this inspector, if that doesn't work then go to state level authorities.

#4 and #5 may be valid. You need 3VA per square foot of "general lighting" circuits in a dwelling. A 15A circuit can provide 1800VA of power, so this would be adequate for a 600sq ft area. How large is the area being served? Is there some other circuit that could be counted as general lighting (e.g. any other multi-receptacle/lighting circuit except for the small appliance circuits or the bathroom circuit)?

What is the "stove"? Is it an oven, a cooktop, or combination (which is usually called a range)? A range over 8KW requires a minimum 40A circuit, and I've never seen a range that is less than 10KW. A cooktop or oven is most likely fine with a 30A circuit as long as that one circuit is not feeding both of them.

I'm not sure what your area is like when you upgrade a panel. Can you just change it and leave all the existing violations intact, or do you need to fix some basic stuff... Did you have to upgrade to AFCI's?

I agree there's nothing wrong with #12 on a 15A circuit or mixing 12 and 14 on a circuit unless there is a local rule prohibiting that.

Table 220.12

Sure there is supposed to be 3VA per Sq ft for general lighting. No where does it say you must have 2 - 15 amp circuits. In fact you do not have to run any 15 amp circuits if you don't want to - you could run all 20 amp circuits for all the 210.52 required outlets. Somebody needs to read 220.14(J) and see just what outlets are all covered by 220.12 in a dwelling unit.

If an inspector won't allow #12 on a 15a breaker, ask him how he would handle voltage drop using #14........

This guy is likely to need someone to call an ambulance if he ever sees a #4 protected by a 20 amp breaker. (and likely for voltage drop reasons)

 

[Pharon]

Sure there is supposed to be 3VA per Sq ft for general lighting. No where does it say you must have 2 - 15 amp circuits. In fact you do not have to run any 15 amp circuits if you don't want to - you could run all 20 amp circuits for all the 210.52 required outlets. Somebody needs to read 220.14(J) and see just what outlets are all covered by 220.12 in a dwelling unit.

Just to clarify in case there was any confusion -- I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the NEC requires (2) 15A lighting circuits. Suemarkp's comment was a possible justification for the inspector's order depending on the house size, and all I did was cite the Code section Hendrix was asking for with respect to the 3VA requirement.

Personally, I think the inspector is making stuff up and needs to be called to task so he doesn't keep doing this to others.