Odd inspector calls

[fmtjfw]

If the inspector doesn't know that #12 AWG conductors are permitted on a 15 amp circuit he should be looking for other work.

If I were to have #12 wire on a circuit that also had #14 wire, and a 15A CB, especially if the #12 was connected to the CB, I believe I would tag the #12 with a note "15A ONLY" in the CB cabinet.

 

[Little Bill]

If I were to have #12 wire on a circuit that also had #14 wire, and a 15A CB, especially if the #12 was connected to the CB, I believe I would tag the #12 with a note "15A ONLY" in the CB cabinet.

While you're at it, you might as well go to that white wire on the switch and color it black!:roll: and leave a note!:lol:

 

[ActionDave]

While you're at it, you might as well go to that white wire on the switch and color it black!:roll: and leave a note!:lol:

Don't forget about the light unless you just happen to have the word HACK tattooed on your forehead.

 

[Sierrasparky]

My point on the range and the lighting circuit is that our scope of work is to replace the panel. Are we now supposed to run a new circuit to the top floor to replace a circuit that has been there since the house was built? I don't believe it is reasonable to request that. The work to replace the circuit is probably more expensive than replacing the panel. This kind of creeping elegance is what keeps people from doing a"small" upgrade. You try and improve something and the AHJ forces you to do a bunch of stuff you didn't plan on doing. I agree that if we find a hazard (open air splice, etc) it should be fixed, but running new circuits to split up the lighting loads and running a new circuit to service a stove when both of those itmes were done to code at the time they were done, is to me completely unreasonable.

FYI-
California uses the Calif Electric code CA title 24 part 3. This is based on the 2011 NEC athough not an exact copy. Also the 2013 Existing building code title 24 part 10.

Based on CA code you do not have to upgrade the home. There is the issue of not compliant at the time of original construction or construction done without a permit in the past. But this is not your issue it is a issue with the AHJ and the current owner.

 

[sfav8r]

Resolution

Resolution

I was able to speak with the inspector this AM. Here are the results of that conversation:

1) #12 wire is being fed with 15a circuit breaker. Replace circuit breaker . (Insp. said he meant there was a #14 wire being fed with a 20a breaker and that it needs to be changed, I have to physically check to confirm whether we actually made that error, if so, obviously it should be changed.)
2) There is a #12 wire in the panel that is spliced to a #14 wire in the junction box in the garage. Remove #12 wire and replace with #14 wire. (FYI, this was on a 15a breaker) (Said that by local amendment they do not allow this unless necessary for voltage drop)
3) Gas pipe is only bonded where it enters the home. Add gas pipe bonding at HW heater. (In addition to requirements of 250.104(B), they require an ADDITIONAL bonding at the HW heater per local amendment.)
4) There is only 1 15a lighting circuit. Two 15a lighting circuits are required. (Said that the wording was confusing and that he did not mean to imply it as I interpreted it. After discussion this issue was dropped)
5) Confirm name plate rating on electric stove. Current 30a circuit may not be sufficient. (This was not to requir a 40a circuit be installed, but rather to confirm that the breaker was not OVERSIZED for the appliance being served)

Thanks for your replies.

 

[cowboyjwc]

As to the 12AWG on a 15a breaker, ran into this when I started as a combo inspector. The concern was "if they see 12AWG then they may assume a 20a replacement breaker is ok...."

I asked if we needed to inspect what "they" might do in the future? Old ideas die hard in gov't.:happyno:

Hey....watch the "combo-county-off road inspektur" bashin'....we're sinsative...

You know what, while this may not be aimed at me, I will admit that I might have come off a little harsh with my comment. Actually you have to have a lot of respect for combo inspectors, just for the fact that they have to know so much. That being said, no one can be good at everything. I am an electrical inspector and that's all I do and all I've done. I know nothing about plumbing, mechanical or framing. I can tell you when it should be a two hour or one hour wall, but that's about as far as my building knowledge goes. I believe that every jurisdiction should have one EI and one PMI, at least on the staff. My reason for that is when you do go to the BO with you complaint, his usual response is going to be, "what did the inspector say?" Why because he doesn't know either.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I was able to speak with the inspector this AM. Here are the results of that conversation:

1) #12 wire is being fed with 15a circuit breaker. Replace circuit breaker . (Insp. said he meant there was a #14 wire being fed with a 20a breaker and that it needs to be changed, I have to physically check to confirm whether we actually made that error, if so, obviously it should be changed.)
2) There is a #12 wire in the panel that is spliced to a #14 wire in the junction box in the garage. Remove #12 wire and replace with #14 wire. (FYI, this was on a 15a breaker) (Said that by local amendment they do not allow this unless necessary for voltage drop)
3) Gas pipe is only bonded where it enters the home. Add gas pipe bonding at HW heater. (In addition to requirements of 250.104(B), they require an ADDITIONAL bonding at the HW heater per local amendment.)
4) There is only 1 15a lighting circuit. Two 15a lighting circuits are required. (Said that the wording was confusing and that he did not mean to imply it as I interpreted it. After discussion this issue was dropped)
5) Confirm name plate rating on electric stove. Current 30a circuit may not be sufficient. (This was not to requir a 40a circuit be installed, but rather to confirm that the breaker was not OVERSIZED for the appliance being served)

Thanks for your replies.

I have issue with the claims of local ammendment. I have stated this many times before. NO city or County can make an ammendment to make more restrictive any of the Title 24 building codes without first making express findings of either Topographical, Seismic, or Climatic. Then and only then can a ordinance be codified with the local government. Then the Local agency MUST file that oridinance along with the express findings with the STATE of CA Building Standards commision. This is why Beverly Hills had to allow NM cable in residences. This went into effect some time in 2008. I would politly tell the AHJ to pound sand as the claims of TOPO, Seismic, or climatic cannot be substantiated.

Good luck!
Stand up , but be respectful.

 

[480sparky]

(Insp. said he meant there was a #14 wire being fed with a 20a breaker and that it needs to be changed, I have to physically check to confirm whether we actually made that error, if so, obviously it should be changed.)

This is not necessarily an automatic violation. Albiet rare in dwellings, #14 certainly can be used with a 20a breaker.

(Said that by local amendment they do not allow this unless necessary for voltage drop)
3) Gas pipe is only bonded where it enters the home. Add gas pipe bonding at HW heater. (In addition to requirements of 250.104(B), they require an ADDITIONAL bonding at the HW heater per local amendment.)

I'd ask to see a printed copy of the local amendments as adopted, and the legal process used to adopt them.

 

[Sierrasparky]

This is not necessarily an automatic violation. Albiet rare in dwellings, #14 certainly can be used with a 20a breaker.




I'd ask to see a printed copy of the local amendments as adopted, and the legal process used to adopt them.

Yea and here is the link to the Calif BSC website for local ammendments. Note that if it is not here under the 2014 filings the all the current 2013 CA codes are in force. It does not matter if there was a filiing for the old 2010 code. When CA adopts a new code all ammendments go away unitl re-filed.

Also just because it is listed on this site does not make it legal. The state does not validate for legality.

http://www.bsc.ca.gov/codes/localfilings.aspx

 

[Pharon]

This is not necessarily an automatic violation. Albiet rare in dwellings, #14 certainly can be used with a 20a breaker.

Under what circumstances? The only one I can think of is fixture wire taps. Are there others?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Under what circumstances? The only one I can think of is fixture wire taps. Are there others?

How about a motor?

Plus I doub't the OP landed a 14 on 20 amp breaker. Maybe by sheer overlook. I would be the inspector trying to use this rediculous code ammendment no 15 amp on 20 amp wire.

Who's to say it's not to voltage drop. There is no real standard for it's application. You can always do a greater correction as long as other codes are met like grounding conductor size.

 

[GoldDigger]

Even for a motor with overload protection, #14 could meet the general ampacity rules but not the small wire size rules.

Tapatalk!

 

[suemarkp]

Motors, HVAC units, welders and a few others are exempted by that via 240.4(G).

 

[480sparky]

Under what circumstances? The only one I can think of is fixture wire taps. Are there others?

Read Table 240.4(G).

 

[sfav8r]

Yea and here is the link to the Calif BSC website for local ammendments. Note that if it is not here under the 2014 filings the all the current 2013 CA codes are in force. It does not matter if there was a filiing for the old 2010 code. When CA adopts a new code all ammendments go away unitl re-filed.

Also just because it is listed on this site does not make it legal. The state does not validate for legality.

http://www.bsc.ca.gov/codes/localfilings.aspx

Thanks Sierra Sparky, this is good information to have. I checked and there is no filing for the jurisdiction in question. We've already "corrected" these items because the ones supposedly required by local amendment were easier to fix than to argue about, but I am glad to have this information for next time.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Thanks Sierra Sparky, this is good information to have. I checked and there is no filing for the jurisdiction in question. We've already "corrected" these items because the ones supposedly required by local amendment were easier to fix than to argue about, but I am glad to have this information for next time.

You are welcome.

As long as nobody challenges them these jurisdictions will continue to get away with making our life difficult. I am not saying to go out and bark down their throat. There is a way to do so with civil discourse. Most reasonable inspectors will be happy to learn something new. Most are not out to get you. I once had a inspector get all over us for not applying fire caulk properly. Well really he was right. He knew most contractors were not following the directions. So we followed the directions and made sure that the caulk was properly applied to the proper depth and circumfrence. And he checked . Came with a pick and plucked to make sure. And yes I had to fix what he plucked. Guess what he never had to check on us again. I made sure the entire team knew how to do it correctly.

 

[kwired]

Motors, HVAC units, welders and a few others are exempted by that via 240.4(G).

Here is a motor example:

2hp 230 volt single phase motor - NEC FLA is 12 amps. Minimum conductor ampacity for general purpose must be 125% of FLA so we need a 15 amp conductor minimum. If we run NM cable we must use 60deg C ampacity values - 14 AWG is acceptable for 15 amps.

Next comes branch circuit short circuit and ground fault protection - this could turn some heads for those not familiar with what is allowed for motor circuits.(see 430.52)

If we have a Standard inverse time circuit breaker we can have up to 250% of motor full load current - which would allow up to a 30 amp breaker on those 14 AWG conductors for this motor circuit.

If we have non time delay fuses we can have up to 300% of motor full load current - which would be 36 amps. We are permitted to go to the next higher standard size in this case which means these 14 AWG conductors can have up to a 40 amp non time delay fuse.

Not all that likely to see a instantaneous trip circuit breaker in a dwelling but if for some reason there would be such a beast installed we can go up to 800% of motor full load current - which is 96 amps. Again we are permitted to go to next standard size so an inverse time breaker on this 14 AWG conductor could be rated up to 100 amps.

Now if the overcurrent devices mentioned above do not allow the motor to start, 430.52 exception 2 does allow for additional increases in the device settings.