Odd multiwire circuit

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paul32

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Minnesota
Not having any reason to do this, but wondering if any reason you can't.

Wire the dining room with 12-3, split wire all the duplex receptacles so top and bottom are on opposite legs. But make one breaker 15A and the other 20A.

[ November 17, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: paul32 ]
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I used an existing 6/3 MC as a 20
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bet it was hell bendng that 6 around those lil recept. screws :D

(joke guys, please)
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

How about 210.52 (A) and (B)(1)? If there is a receptacle outlet in the DR, it is required to be powered by one of the "two or more SA circuits." Those are required to be 20 amp circuits.

It doesn't sound like you plan to use the 15 amp half of the duplex as a switched lighting outlet, as allowed by Exception 1 to 210.523(B)(1). So you can't go with a 15 amp breaker.
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by augie47:
bet it was #*@! bending that 6 around those lil recept. screws :D

(joke guys, please)
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I don't know, it was in a tough to fit space so it was a learning experience for the apprentice. :D
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

How about 210.52 (A) and (B)(1)? If there is a receptacle outlet in the DR, it is required to be powered by one of the "two or more SA circuits." Those are required to be 20 amp circuits.

It doesn't sound like you plan to use the 15 amp half of the duplex as a switched lighting outlet, as allowed by Exception 1 to 210.523(B)(1). So you can't go with a 15 amp breaker.
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I was thinking exactly the same thing Charlie.

Trevor
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

It would probably be more trouble than it's worth, as you'd have to tie the two breakers together since the receptacles would be split-wired. Not sure why you'd want to have a smaller breaker in this case, anyway.

Otherwise, I agree with Charlie. Again. :)
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I was focused on the multiwire branch circuit question as that was the title of the thread.

I looked right by the 15 amp circuit in the DR. :eek:

So my answer stands for the multiwire branch circuit but not for this particular application. :p
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I thought that if you satisfied the code requirements, which having 1/2 of the receptacle fed from 20 amp circuit would do, you could then do whatever you want. That seemed to be the consensus of this forum.
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
That seemed to be the consensus of this forum.
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Yeah I agree with that and remembered about it but was unwilling to start that one up again. :p
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by augie47:
I used an existing 6/3 MC as a 20
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bet it was hell bendng that 6 around those lil recept. screws :D

(joke guys, please)
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no I bet he just backstabbed the recepticals noone uses the screws any more takes too much time and you loose the payment for the call back when you have to return for the poor conection.
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I too was one of those that stated that once the requirements for the small appliance were met that you could install anything you wanted in these rooms.
How wrong I was. :)
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve ALL wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment
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Thats right they shall serve ALL wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),

No others. :D

[ November 17, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

In the 2002 code 210.4(B) Dwelling Units.In dwelling units,a multiwire branch circuit supplying more than one device or equipment on the same yoke shall be provided with a means to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors at the panelboard where the branch circuit originated
The same in 210.7 (C)
So unless they make a 220v/15a/20a breaker the answer is NO
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Funny how you can highlight certain words while completely ignoring others to spin it your way Mike.
As much as I think the intent is to have all the recptacles in the kitchen and dining room fed from 20 amp branch circuits I don't think the rule is written that way. Based on this I think the original scenario is perfectly legal.
Strange, but legal.

[ November 17, 2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

But the code book is calling for simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors.How is this done with a 15a and a 20a circuit? Not to mention that the loads should be ballanced.
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by HKYPLR:
But the code book is calling for simultaneously disconnect the ungrounded conductors.How is this done with a 15a and a 20a circuit?
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A listed handle tie.


Originally posted by HKYPLR:
Not to mention that the loads should be ballanced.
Click to expand...
Kind of tough as you never know which circuit would be in use or how much will be plugged in.
 
Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Jim Pauley, forgive me should I mess up as I shall try to remember the very words that you used when you explained this to me. Mr. Pauley is on panel 2 which wrote this article.

210.52(B)(1) requires all receptacles located any where in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area to be on a 20 ampere small appliance circuit with the exceptions of the receptacle outlet for refrigeration, an electric clock, supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1 and individual branch circuits that supplies only one utilization equipment.

A lot of confusion about the installation of other receptacle outlets protected by 15 ampere over current devices revolves around the misunderstanding of section 210.52(B)(1). What I will do in order to help with this understanding is break this section down leaving one word on a line by itself.

210.52(A)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets

covered

by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets

covered

by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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By using the word covered instead of required it leaves this section to be all encompassing of any and all receptacle outlets that are installed in these locations. Should the word ?required? have been used instead of ?covered? then one or more 15 amp circuit could be installed.

I hope I did a good job of pointing out what he explained to me. I also beg the forgiveness of those that I so rigorously defended the 15 amp circuit against. I am now convinced that I was wrong in my thoughts and now stand corrected.
 
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