Odd multiwire circuit

[benaround]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

That is funny,because what Charlie said is the same thing that George is saying!!

"pick a point along the floor line,measure to the nearest recpt. if it is less than 6' you are in compliance"

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by jdeuce:
...now I can tell my apprentice to read this thread.

What do you have against your apprentice?

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

It seems to me this article does not define an un useable wall space.
All wall space is that which is 24" or greater( including space measured around conners). The wall spaces behind doors are to be considered in taking of measurements. If that space is 24" or greater before it is broken , a receptacle outlet is required.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by benaround: That is funny, because what Charlie said is the same thing that George is saying!!

"pick a point along the floor line, measure to the nearest recpt. if it is less than 6' you are in compliance"

But that is where we go our separate ways. I disagree with George's take on this. I don't agree to disagree, I just disagree.

As you start at one point and measure along the wall to find the nearest receptacle, you are not permitted to leave the wall space in which that point is located. You can't leave the wall space by skipping around a doorway; you can't leave the wall space by measuring across the floor to the opposite wall. First of all, there are no words in the NEC that say you can. Secondly, there are words that say you can't. The words that say you can't are the "in any wall space" from 210.52(A)(1), as has already been discussed.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by georgestolz: As I read it, you can't install a receptacle in a wall space at all. A wall space is a one-dimensional fictional creature that sits in the shoe of a wall, and is a basis for measurements and requirements.

Nonsense. That is not what the code says.

From 210.52(A)(2) and 210.52(A)(2)(1)

. . . a wall space shall include . . . Any space (that makes it two-dimensional) 600 mm(2 ft) or more in width (that gives the measure of one of the dimensions, but does not deny the existence of the other). . . .

 

[jbwhite]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Some of us come to these forums to both learn more about how to do electrical work, and provide knowlege if others need help.

Others seem to come to argue semantics and split hairs.

To misquote someone from another topic. anyone can make suggestions regarding changes to the nec.
if you dont like the way it is written, by all means make a suggestion. if you want to understand what was written, why, and how to apply it, then post your question here.

 

[busman]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

As I read it, the measurement (verb) starts at the receptacle and is done (starts and ends) in the wall space (the wall space is that wall area until it is broken by doors, etc) to each point in the wall space. This measurement must be 6' or less for all points in the wall space as measured along the floor line.

Mark

[ November 21, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: busman ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by jbwhite:Others seem to come to argue semantics and split hairs.

I come to argue semantics, but I can't afford to split any of my remaining hairs.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

This is just silly. Makes me wonder if you can plug an undercabinet light into a small appliance receptacle.

This is a case of reading WAY beyond the obvious looking for.....?

 

[benaround]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Charlie,

After reading this agian today I see that I should of said something like,"in my opinion" before making a statement with your name and George's name,sorry about that!

Frank

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I second Frank's statement, Charlie. While your statement spurred on this weird little tirade of mine, I certainly didn't intend to implicate you!

Editted italics with picture

[ November 22, 2005, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[david]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

I hope mother has lots of money for lamps,
I picture a lamp stand on one wall with a cord stretched across to the other wall receptacle kids make sure you step over the lamp cord this time!

 

[iwire]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

George you are making this far to complicated.

Along with that I truly believe your are mistaken.

Both Charlie and I have given what I believe are good answers to the reason why you are mistaken.

Here is one of them.

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by j_erickson:
This does not say that the receptacle must be located within the wall space.

No, but...

measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space

....the measurement itself is limited to one particular 'wall space'. The measurement can not extend into another 'wall space'.

That being the case an outlet must be on each wall space.

Bob

 

[pierre]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

George
The CMPs generally have an intention, and a reason for making code requirements. Sometimes reading the actual code requirement does not always help one to understand the how or why. That is where reading other documentation such as ROPs & ROCs will help. Sometimes it just does not make sense.

Also, you are trying to dissect the wording in the NEC as some do a novel. I believe you are reading way too hard... sorry.

And yes, there are mistakes in the NEC, but try not to get as crazy about it as I do

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

No matter what we have to adhere to the 2 ft.,6ft.,12 ft. measurment.The inspector green (no fee)tagged the rough in 210.52 A 2 (1) and as a foot note wrote good luck with a smiley face.30 in wall behind master bed room door that was a pocket door. No room around corner towards the closet,just enough for door trim for closet door.No wonder why he said good luck.
Floor receptacle ??? Has to be a cheaper way.
Took out my tape and measured pocket door opening 29 1/2 ins.Pocket door frame 36 ins

 

[charlie b]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Originally posted by georgestolz: See this picture for my read on this. The blue line is probably the common interpretation of "measuring along the floor line. My interpretation is the red circle, and I believe it bears scrutiny. Anyone who disagrees on my take on this portion, quote up and fire away.

I do disagree. The red circle is not "along the floor line in any wall space." Once you get any distance away from the wall, and are measuring on the floor, you are no longer "in any wall space."

Originally posted by georgestolz:...in any wall space...

This appears to be the death-nail for my way of thinking, but it seems to not resonate so strongly with me.

That it is, whether or not you are yet ready to resonate with it.

Originally posted by georgestolz: To me, I see this in context with the prior sentence fragment ("so that no point...in any wall space is more than...6 ft from a receptacle outlet.")

I changed the bold emphasis in this quote. I would like to point out that you used ellipses to substitute for what I believe is the key phrase, "measured horizontally along the floor line."

Note that since this article is talking about "any wall space," it must be applied to each and every wall space. If you look at one wall space out of all of the wall spaces in the whole house, the rule must be satisfied in that wall space.

So pick a point on the wall. Measure horizontally along the floor line in either direction, until you come to a receptacle or until you come to the end of the wall space. During this measurement, you have to be both "along the floor line" and in the "wall space" under consideration. If you were in any other wall space, or if you were no longer in a wall space at all, then you are no longer measuring in accordance with the instruction, "measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space. . . ."

Originally posted by georgestolz: I see points in a wall space that need to be 6' or less from a receptacle outlet. I fail to see where it states that the receptacle shall be located in that wall space.

Because otherwise a point in that wall space cannot be within 6 feet of a receptacle, if you measure "horizontally along the floor line" in that wall space."

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Hark! I see the light!

I think I'll try some salsa on my crow this go-around.

Thank you all for humoring me and taking the time to go through this. I'll continue to have crazy spells, but hopefully they will be few and far between.

 

[JohnE]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Thanks, George, you had me convinced for a while.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Trust no one.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Odd multiwire circuit

Ah shucks. I thought we had the makings of another 300+ poster here.