OK to switch and plug before paint?

[jimwalker]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

The job is not complete without covers.Do you want to risk a painter or handyman installing them ? will they get them on straight,turn screws in one direction,not mix up plates with gfci stickers ? Your inviting a failed job and sloppy finish.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

I acn agree and disagree on this issue the one builder I was talking about is a large custom builder and it has been the norm for over 2 years to install devices,leave cover plates and they do the rest.Far be it from me to argue.There have been no call backs for missing plated,screws etc.This is in the city of Tampa And the AHJ does finals without coverplates Installed Guess he figures $600,000.00 town home won`t close that way.
This is a rarity have other tract builders that send warranty calls a year later for miaaing plate screws,go there and the drywall repair isn`t even painted .Me I send a bill for a trip charge.Maybe they can get the message,doubt it but maybe

 

[paul]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

I haven't wired a house from start to finish in about five years. But at that time, we were finaled after the rough-in inspection, which I always thought to be strange.

With this issue, I would worry more about the owner's acceptance during the walk-through, than I would a code violation.

 

[jimmyglen]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

physis is right

after I tould the GC that I cant do that then he backed off

Anytime my boss wants to tell me that we cant do something he tells me its "CODE" that we cant do it. It drives me nuts because I am decent with the code book and I cant find most of the "CODE" he is talking about

 

[physis]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Sometimes I get a lucky guess in.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Why is it that a GC thinks the painter should mask off everything else when painting but somehow thinks the electrician should tape outlets.Does the window installer tape his windows ? Does the tile man tape his work,how about cabinets and doors.Taping is part of the painters job.And good ones can paint right around the cover.Ooops i forgot i am in Fl,that wont happen.

 

[mdshunk]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by jimmyglen:
Anytime my boss wants to tell me that we cant do something he tells me its "CODE" that we cant do it. It drives me nuts because I am decent with the code book and I cant find most of the "CODE" he is talking about

Yes, that is aggrivating. I have been in your shoes at one time. BUT... if you work for someone, the boss's rules/orders are just as much "code" as the NEC is, as long as they don't conflict. His rules would be a little easier to stomach if he just said "that's our policy" as opposed to saing "it's code".

[ May 12, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]

 

[allenwayne]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Why is it that a GC thinks the painter should mask off everything else when painting but somehow thinks the electrician should tape outlets.Does the window installer tape his windows ? Does the tile man tape his work,how about cabinets and doors.Taping is part of the painters job.And good ones can paint right around the cover.Ooops i forgot i am in Fl,that wont happen.

Jim last year when the owner of a rather large painting company was backcharged for 15 painted/contaminated panels @ $195.00 each He asked for a meeting with someone from our company,that someone was me Rude yes,point made YES

 

[jimwalker]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

LOL would love to been there.The best one i ever seen was the painter did not notice we had just hung the jelly jar on the garage side door.He started spraying the door.Then i hear
O S---.No big deal $3 fixture and 5 minutes.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by mdshunk:
His rules would be a little easier to stomach if he just said "that's our policy" as opposed to saing "it's code".

Remember growing up, and asking your dad if you could do something, and hearing, "What does your mother think?"

It's nice having the codebook as an anonymous parent.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by mc5w:
In Ohio and Pennsylvania every general contractor who builds new houses says that they can get a house wired for 1/4 of what a reputable estimating book says that the work should cost.

An estimating book is nothing more than a guideline. With the fluctuation with all costs of running a business right now, there is no book that is going to be 'dead-on-balls accurate' (My Cousin Vinnie )
I work in PA and for some GC's that are from PA, and I can tell you, they are paying more than you may know.

General contractors also say that a 2 man crew can wire a 4 bedroom house in a day. In other words, the people who got there first do not want any help.

Maybe. What's involved? Did the crew just do 50 of the exact same model?
Beside, who is letting the GC dictate how long it should take? Deadlines are deadlines, but foolishness, well, it is just that.

All of my buddies who are electricians tell me that the only time they wire new houses is when they wired their own house or when a homeowner is acting as his own general contractor.

Good for them.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

It is not uncommon on large commercial projects to be installing devices before paint.

Sometimes, devices might be installed right after the drywall is hung, in all areas where there are no seams.

Our company policy is to install all of our own plates. We will install them all or leave them all off. We do not rely on anyone to finish our job.

 

[mc5w]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

I have encountered some people who are obsessive-compulsive about seeing "progress" on a job. 1/2 of real estate snots are moronic enough to put up drywall before calling an electrician or plumber. Rather hard to explain to a moron that the wires have to go into the wall first. That is not to mention that every real estate snot that I have encountered wants their work done for FREE not to mention that Cleveland Public Power does electrical services and house rewires for FREE.

Also, in the kind of economic climate in the U.S. since 1978, it can take 3 years to sell a new house. Also, my experience with relatives selling their houses is that essentially nobody buys a house while standard time is in effect.

Right now it costs about 1.5 times as much to do wiring as what a reputable estimating book says that the work should cost. The hurricane damage down south doubled the price of copper wire and boosted the cost of everything else. Interestingly, the price of copper pipe and brass plumbing fittings did not get manipulated. Very few people ( such as hospitals ) want to pay extra for the price of materials.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by mc5w:

Also, in the kind of economic climate in the U.S. since 1978, it can take 3 years to sell a new house.

Would you be talking about the U.S. here on planet earth?

[ May 13, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Right now it costs about 1.5 times as much to do wiring as what a reputable estimating book says that the work should cost.

And the point is?

 

[mdshunk]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by mc5w:
Also, in the kind of economic climate in the U.S. since 1978, it can take 3 years to sell a new house.

Huh? I don't wire very many new homes, but most all of the spec homes that I have wired in the last year have been sold before they were actually finished. Maybe you live in a depressed local market?

 

[mc5w]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

When I was a child I observed contruction of houses as well as other buildings. It takes a lot longer than 2 man-days to wire a 4 bedroom house. In order to wire a house for 1/4 of what a reputable estimating book says that the work should cost, I would need to use slave labor a stolen materials to get the job in under budget.

In other words, the GC is telling me a cock and bull story because his is afraid that his other electricians will get liquid-bodily-wastematter mad and screw him if he hires any new people.

Besides, if you were the customer would you want to p;ay 1.5 times as much to wire a building just because ALL the cheap wiring supplies are going down south?

When I had an interview over at Alcoa in the first quarter of 1999 they told ne that they could not hire me because I have never terminated a 15,000 volt power cable. Come on, do ALL of the electricians have to know how to do that? How much would it cost to have me sit down at a workbench and make a few terminations for practice purposes for a day? A few months later Alcoa's crane repair contractor told me that I was not fat enough to work for Alcoa and any of his other CUSStomers. This guy admitted to having to engage in whiter versus merely white race discrimination and ethnic discrimination to please his CUSStomers. Evidentally, this crane repair contractor was trying to help me by telling me how to win a race discrimination lawsuit. I guess that the daffynition of heavy industrial is that a nam has to weigh at least 250 pounds in order to work there.

One of the things that I have also later learned is that most machine builders will not allow any customer access to a programmable controller program, partly because of copyright, trade secrecy, and safety issues. What that means is that I have to debug the system using the garbage in garbage out principle. 99% of breakdowns associated with programmable controllers are caused by broken wires, misaligned limit switches, and jammed gearboxes. 0.9% of the time an I/O board for the programmable controller goes bad. It is a federal felony to modify somebody else's computer program and then use it for commercial purposes without their permission. Copyright holder NEVER give out permission for somebody else to modify their program because they want to pocket the labor dollars.

Getting back to the original topic, I do install the switches and receptacles when doing old work before building finish is done. I just simply tape up the device and attach a nonmetallic cover plate - I usually have to make a few trips to stick in drywall mud, let it dry, then sand the area. Never had a customer get shocked or burned because they know not to go behind the plastic plate. In a lot of instances I only have to mud some small gaps and stick the device into the box right away but in some instance I have to chop some plaster or drywall to do the job.

 

[mc5w]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

As for economically depressed areas, I live in Cleveland, Ohio. I am not allowed by alledged law to go down south and help because I do not have $6,000 in net positive assets. I also did not get 6 years of experience in the past 12 years, only a little over 5 years.

There are about 30 states that have state licensing that says that I cannot leave the rust belt and work there. I have to essentially prove that I have no need to work there in order to get a license to work there. In some cases the work experience requirement is 6 years which is excessive. In some cases I have to prove that I am rich such as how New Jersey requires a $300,000 letter of credit from a bank to get a license. In the case of Florida I have to have 2 years of management experience on million dollar and larger projects in order to get an real license. As long as the military cranks out people who have 6 continuous and full time yeatrs of experience and $6,000 to $15,000 in net positive assets, states are going to get away with requiring that. In Alaska I need 6 different licenses to do anything but fire alarms - to do everything electrical I need 7 licenses!

 

[celtic]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Originally posted by mc5w:
As for economically depressed areas, I live in Cleveland, Ohio....

" 26.3% of the population and 22.9% of families are below the poverty line.
Cleveland,_Ohio#Demographics

Originally posted by mc5w:
In some cases I have to prove that I am rich such as how New Jersey requires a $300,000 letter of credit from a bank to get a license

....I don't remember needing that letter ..but then again, I live in NJ and gained all the required OTJ experience here to qualify to take the test.

Maybe the reason NJ wants a 300k letter of credit is keep us from falling to a 25% poverty rate...
"Newark and Camden are two of the poorest cities in America, but New Jersey as a whole has the highest median household income in the nation, as well as the second highest per capita income, after Connecticut...New Jersey is also the most densely populated state in the nation, and the first and only state that has had every one of its 21 counties deemed "urban", as opposed to rural." New_Jersey#Demographics


I'm not sure where your train is heading mc5w, but don't blame NJ for it being derailed.

Originally posted by mc5w:
......they could not hire me because I have never terminated a 15,000 volt power cable. Come on, do ALL of the electricians have to know how to do that? How much would it cost to have me sit down at a workbench and make a few terminations for practice purposes for a day? ......

I don't know about anyone else, but I am qualified up to 35k (did a few in March and got 7 stitches in my hand for my troubles - along with 56 hours pay in 3 days time).

If your not quaified, your not hired...pissing and moaning won't improve your chances of being hired either.

In order for anyone to teach YOU, they MUST be certified. If you think just sitting at some cozy prima donna workbench for a day making practice terminations is "good enough" - guess again. What happens if the job is NOT a "kit job" (all hand taping), what if it IS a "kit job" and you lose/break/ a component, what if the cable you "praticed" on is not the same type cable as in the field, do you have any experience w/LOTO, PPE, confined spaces, etc etc etc?

Don't insult those of us who have taken our own time and gotten ourselves qualified with your "it's no big deal attitude".

If you REALLY want to know how much it costs...ask the people at raychem or okinite....

[EDITED: HV tangent]

[ May 14, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: celtic ]

 

[james wuebker]

Re: OK to switch and plug before paint?

Here in Iowa, the area I work in we install it all after painting is all completed. The carpet goes in last. Wouldn't put receptacles on without a cover due to a safety factor. There's people out there that could get there finger near the receptacle and say he got shocked and in todays world someone will try taking you to court . We finish up everything and I get the GC to sign off. Yes I agree with alot what has been said. The painters should be able to mask the receptacles just like they do the wood trim and everything else. Maybe everyone just communicate better. I believe people are getting lazy or we're not communicating very well during a project like this or anything else.
Jim