old 2 wire romex

[steelersman]

2 wire romex with no EGC is pretty common. the old romex that does have the egc is always a number 16 awg conductor. usually its not even terminated to a box its just boston backwrapped.

What is boston backwrapped? Is it any different than Texas or Alabama backwrapped?

 

[iwire]

massachusetts deletes the section of gfci protection on ungrounded circuits as a replacement receptacle.

I am looking at the 2005 MA amendments and do not see any changes to 406.3(D)

250.130(C) is entirely deleted.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Two wire romex without ground is something I see from time to time. Some divisions of this "town" I work in were wired almost exclusively with it.

No one seems to have mentioned 2005 NEC 406.3(D)(3)(a) yet.

When I find grounding type receptacles connected to ungrounded two wire romex in dwellings, my first inclination is to assume that the original installation was plain old two wire receptacles (non-grounding) and that an unknowledgable DIYer put in the grounding types, unwittingly creating a hazard.

By installing new non-grounding receptacles I return the installation to its original Code compliant condition as-built. This works for most all of the general lighting outlets that are receptacles.

If the dwelling has a microwave, refrigerator, air conditioner, cable/satellite box, etc. at the location, to be, or being, plugged into the receptacle, then an EGC must be provided.

 

[tgammon]

How to replace old 2 wire romex with modern romex?

How to replace old 2 wire romex with modern romex?

Hi,

I am doing a little background research for my boss.

What methods can be used to replace old 2 wire romex with 2C/W Gnd Romex?

A response would be most appreciated.

Tammy

 

[steelersman]

If the dwelling has a microwave, refrigerator, air conditioner, cable/satellite box, etc. at the location, to be, or being, plugged into the receptacle, then an EGC must be provided.

Or you could change it out with a GFCI receptacle couldn't you?

 

[SEO]

As Al mentioned an EGC shall be installed for several different types of appliances, a GFCI does not eliminate the requirement of an EGC for a room air conditioner look at section 440.61.

 

[steelersman]

As Al mentioned an EGC shall be installed for several different types of appliances, a GFCI does not eliminate the requirement of an EGC for a room air conditioner look at section 440.61.

right but we're talking about existing wiring that has no ground. Obviously in a new installation that would be expected.

 

[R Bob]

yeah I'm going to install a gfci breaker cause the homebuyer is paying for it (otherwise I'd just get one gfci receptacle). How about the 2 wire romex without a ground? You guys ever seen it?

I find that stuff all over the place.
Wait till you find a gas pipe hooked up to an electrical box.

 

[stickboy1375]

Hi,

I am doing a little background research for my boss.

What methods can be used to replace old 2 wire romex with 2C/W Gnd Romex?

A response would be most appreciated.

Tammy

Rip the old stuff out and install new wire?

 

[tgammon]

Short of "Rip the old stuff out and install new wire?"

Are there any retrofit measures?

 

[JohnJ0906]

As Al mentioned an EGC shall be installed for several different types of appliances, a GFCI does not eliminate the requirement of an EGC for a room air conditioner look at section 440.61.

Also, check 250.114(3). I agree with SEO - certain appliances require an EGC.

 

[K8MHZ]

Short of "Rip the old stuff out and install new wire?"

Are there any retrofit measures?

In some specific instances the NEC allows an ECG to be tapped from a metal water pipe and wired to a receptacle.

This is only accepted under certain circumstances and just tagging onto a pipe may or may not be legal and/or provide adequate protection.

A re-wire is always the best way. The cheapest is to leave it alone. Not many choices in betwixed the two.

 

[SB Sparky]

Do you know the insulation type and temp rating of this cloth covered 2 wire romex? Often you hear "Conductors in homes wired prior to 1985 may not be rated at 90 degrees" Is this when the romex started having THHN conductors?

 

[PWR73]

run ground wire tp water pipe

run ground wire tp water pipe

To provide a grounding receptacle where there is no ground wire in the box--can you run a ground wire to the closest water pipe?

 

[aftershock]

ok so I'm not crazy after all then. I just can't believe that in the same area for 15 years that i've been doing this I haven't seen this kind of wire before. Thanks for the input fellas.

Do you do alot of "old work"?
Im asking only because I have been doing this type of work just over 9 yrs and I have seen quite a bit. The house I live in has both the cloth covered and rubber covered romex. With no ground.
I have seen cloth covered romex with a ground, usually the ground wire was wrapped around the romex itself and than a romex connector installed in a metal box.

 

[220/221]

They have an obviously old romex that has no ground wire in it just the black and white wire. What's up with that? Anyone ever see this before?

Heh heh...once or twice.

GFCI breakers are the easiest solution.....if there are no MWBC's.

 

[danickstr]

I saw a weird wire last month...it was stainless braided two-wire rubber. Never seen it before. I actually thought at first a plumber had run a long flex line into the subpanel area, and I was going to curse his stupidity.

 

[steelersman]

GFCI breakers are the easiest solution.....if there are no MWBC's.

why does it matter whether or not they are on a MWBC?

 

[danickstr]

the shared neutral will throw off the sensitivity of the current parity sensor when the other UC is energized, tripping the Gfi I think.

 

[roger3829]

the shared neutral will throw off the sensitivity of the current parity sensor when the other UC is energized, tripping the Gfi I think.

True.

Don't try putting a GFCI breaker on knob & tube. Most of the "circuits" have many taps. If they ran a hot wire and the already was a neutral close by they would just tap off the neutral