Old House Ceiling Light

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goskime

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Bangor, Maine
I friend of mine asked if I would hookup their kitchen light. It had come down while he was fixing the pull chain switch. He didn't want to put it back up because it had some old looking wires in it.
When I looked at it, it was typically old house wiring. The fixture bracket screwed onto the wood and two black wires hanging there. The wires were two separate conductors. They were originally a solid wire. Maybe a tap off some old knob and tube wiring, to which someone had spliced a stranded wire on to make the connection to the light. The house is said to be over a hundred years old. My first thought was to put a box there. But the unspliced wires were right up near where they were coming through the ceiling,under that we had strapping and a tin ceiling, the wires were not long enough to get into a box. I insulated the wires as best as I could. The hot wire had a bare spot about 1/2 inch long. Made sure that everything was well insulated and put the ceiling light back up. I told the homeowner that there was no box under the light. But short of tearing the ceiling up, I figured that at least it was better that what I found.
Is there a better way to handle this type of problem. When I have encountered these problems in the past there was usually a reasonable way to get a box on the outlet. Other points of view?
 
Seems like a DIY post, but here I go anyhow.

Sounds like you've opened up a can of worms. Plus, you have the "must be connected to 90*C supply wiring" issue to contend with for the new fixture. You have a situation that seems like the portions you can access are unsalvagable. How are your plaster repair skills? Welcome to old work. I have had to blank up more than one former light fixture location fed with K&T because it was in too bad of shape and the homeowner was unwilling to spring for the proper repair. Either do the proper repair, or let them hire a handyman to do it. That way, the handyman can brag about how "dumb" I was for "not being able to figure it out".
 
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goskime said:
Made sure that everything was well insulated and put the ceiling light back up. ...I figured that at least it was better that what I found.
Click to expand...
Can't blame you there. :)

Marc, check the profile. I'd buy it. :D
 
When faced with the typical crumbling insulation on house wiring, I usually finish removing the old stuff, strip some insulation from a one-size-up conductor, and sleeve the now-bare old wires as far up as I can.

An extension cord and a wiggy or a non-contact tester can be used to identify the hot and neutral conductors when choosing insulation sleeve colors if you want to identify them.
 
Larry did you learn the sleeving trick from the same guy I did .Man that was 32 years ago:)This was a very common problem when i worked in NYC, 2 BR apt with a 15 amp fuse in the basement.A/C`S fridges and always the fuse stat torn out and either a 30 a fuse installed in some cases a penny behind the fuse ( NICE HUH )

At least you didn`t find the old gas stub retro`d with BX using a pancake box that fit over the 3/8 pipe stub and when you went to remove the pipe cap so you could remove the pancake box to get some wire to make the new connection find out the gas pipe was still hooked up.I`ll tell you what that will pucker you up :)

Bet you could use a retro fan brace and an octagon and get enough wire to enter the box and connect to.At least there would be a box,might have to extend the wires a bit but there would be a box.
 
Everything about this post says DIY.,if i am wrong then sorry but NO electrician would touch this fire trap.When the fire takes this place down and it will you can bet your getting blamed.Run dont walk from this.And if you did this without license and insurance you could end up paying.
 
When a person puts in his profile as an electrician, then posts such as the OP did, he is not an electrician. He also said he was the homeowners friend. Friends treat each other much better than that.
The OP took the easy way out, thinking he saved his "friend" some money, not so...

If that was my friend he would have two options. I correctly install it, or I leave it off for someone else to correctly install it. It is sort of like taking the keys from a drunk friend so they do not drive while drunk, they may get real mad, but you have possibly saved many people from a bad situation.

I agree with Jim.
 
Tip off words
1. its his first post
2. its for a friend
3. no box but he still reinstalled.
be a real friend and hire an electrician before you kill someone.
Perhaps its time to prove we are in the field.Old idea but need is there.
 
Jim it`s being caught between a rock and a hard place.The profile is filled out.Anyone can enter what ever they want as to what they are.But I agree that the post showed either #1 a DIY`R or #2 a person that didn`t use there head.

I agree that by reinstalling the fixture without a box especially knowing the wiring was sub par was just plain ridiculous.If he is actually an electrician.Doesn`t matter industrial,commercial,residential/ He should at least know that no box is taboo.
 
goskime said:
Is there a better way to handle this type of problem.
Click to expand...

The real problem here is that you touched this situation with your own hands, and now you own it. You're going to get the bill if the house burns down.

If you're an industrial electrician without knob-and-tube and assorted other vital old house work skills needed for this situation, I highly recommend you get your friend to hire someone who has that experience and those skills. It will save you a lot of sleepless tossing and turning at night wondering just what you did wrong and when the proverbial shoe's gonna drop.
 
Welcome to the Forum.

Your friend is fortunate to have you following up on the problem. How many others would cover up the problem with a few well placed screws to carry the pull chain tugs and then walk away without telling anyone anything other than "There ya go. . .good as new!"

I commend you for posting the question.

What you describe is a hard situation to fix. Period.

Permit me to rearrange your post with what I take to be the primary points.
goskime said:
  1. kitchen light. . .pull chain switch.
  2. The fixture bracket screwed onto the wood
  3. two black. . .separate conductors.
  4. house is said to be over a hundred years old.
  5. But the unspliced wires were right up near where they were coming through the ceiling
  6. strapping and a tin ceiling
  7. The hot wire had a bare spot about 1/2 inch long.
  8. When I have encountered these problems in the past there was usually a reasonable way to get a box on the outlet.
Click to expand...
Regrettably, there is no "reasonable way" apparent to get the box on the outlet. Even so, it's got to happen.

The tin ceiling means the fixture has to be grounded.

The fixture bar means the fixture is not the original fixture (the original almost certainly was, in fact, screwed to the lathe along its edges or held by a crow's foot that was, in turn, screwed to the lathe). When the luminaire with the fixture bar was hung, the box should have been installed for the fixture bar to attach to.

The firring down of the original ceiling for the new tin ceiling should have resulted in the extension or relocation of the lighting outlet box, as well as the installation of an EGC to the lighting outlet.

The first step to fixing this is to explore the structure above the plaster and lathe. If framing is present, it will probably simplify the fastening of a new box. Getting the plaster and lathe opened up around the original conductors will also, possibly, give you just a little more length to work with. . .hopefully.

All this excavation will be done without disturbing the edges of the tin ceiling at the lighting outlet.

Once open, then decide on the type of box to recess.

The real hard part, however, will be routing an EGC to the location. Don't overlook using the other side of the walls to place fishing holes.

It's probable that the light fixture will have to be "upgraded" to a cooler unit that will not require 90?C branch circuit wiring.
 
Sometimes you have to be creative when retroing a box in a case like this.I`ve in the past had to move a fixture a bit in order to get enough wire to use.To hide the move I`ve used a medallion under the fixture to hide the move.Especially on a tin ceiling a medallion fits in,just paint to match.
 
I think you guys should cut him some slack. He says he is an electrician, & I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt.

If the house is over 100 years old, the wiring may have been done before the first NEC was even published. So what requirement is there to bring this light fixture up to todays code? None that I know of.

I agree that the wiring is probably unsafe, and a box would be a lot better. But if the homeowner doesn't want to open the ceiling, what else can you do but put it back as best as possible?
 
True story.

True story.

.
I had just such the same situation last year about this time. I got a call from an old customer, a nice lady with a bunch of kids. She had a mud room lite that "had to be replaced once a year". She informed me that her husbands
"freind" a supposed electrician, had replaced the lite twice. Upon the third call back he told her to by a fluorescent because "it would run cooler". She bought one and then called me.

I took replacement lite #2 down [a round two lamp surface mount fixture with decorative glass semi globe].

At first I couldnt tell what I was seeing. Upon further examination I saw blackened joist and the "remnant" of what used to be plastic nail on round box. It looked like it had been in microwave. The wirenuts were disfigured. There was blown loose insulation totally enclosing the box.

The reason the lady called me was "something smelled "like burning" AT NIGHT EVEN!!!

This "freind" electrician" never fixed the "source" of the problem. Loose/bad connections in box. Instead he just kept repacing "burned out lite fixtures"

To this day I dont understand how they survived without "ignition" occuring and starting a fire in the attic next to all the bedrooms.

I showed her the box and wirenuts and she could see the blackened joist. I talked her out of the fluorescent and into a IC Halo with trim. Totally reworked everything. It cost her.

But at least she doesnt have to smell burning anymore. And I wont have to go back and change a ballast. I think it is better that she can just change lamps and not worry about lites that dont work.

She is one lucky lady. It was close.
.
 
steve66 said:
I think you guys should cut him some slack. He says he is an electrician, & I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt.

If the house is over 100 years old, the wiring may have been done before the first NEC was even published. So what requirement is there to bring this light fixture up to todays code? None that I know of.

I agree that the wiring is probably unsafe, and a box would be a lot better. But if the homeowner doesn't want to open the ceiling, what else can you do but put it back as best as possible?
Click to expand...

I agree Steve. I was just passing on some experience.

Maybe a surface mount 4ft wrap around could work. All connections contained.
 
steve66 said:
I think you guys should cut him some slack. He says he is an electrician, & I think you should give him the benefit of the doubt.

If the house is over 100 years old, the wiring may have been done before the first NEC was even published. So what requirement is there to bring this light fixture up to todays code? None that I know of.

I agree that the wiring is probably unsafe, and a box would be a lot better. But if the homeowner doesn't want to open the ceiling, what else can you do but put it back as best as possible?
Click to expand...

Nobody`s giving him a hard time .Read the OP he asked for other opinions.I don`t know about you but if i am faced with a situation that has me scratching my head a bit,I sure ask for others opinions.I`m sure he can safely and competently do the job that isn`t the issue.The issue is what ideas are out there to correct what I have in front of me.
I don`t think that just because it was wired prior to the NEC having authority grandfathers it in if a hazard is present.As in this case.My bigger concern would be what else is in this shape and how close to calling 911 are they.A home wired back then usually had only lights and maybe a few receptacles.But in order to keep up with modern items receptacles were added years down the road.Sometimes in a new circuit but often tapped off the existing wiring.So does that keep the wiring grandfathered in ???But this is a moot subject since the OP asked for opinions.
 
I have spoken to the HO and recommended a complete inspection of their wiring. It wasn't just this ceiling outlet that had no box that concerns me I am also concerned that there are probably more ceiling outlets without boxes. I also informed her that the kitchen light does need a box and should be repaired as soon as possible.
I appreciate all of the comments that were made to help me understand some of the finer points of old house wiring.
I realize that many of you who have been doing this type of work for a long time have skills that I do not have. And that is why I asked the question.

.
 
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