Old school pool - no bondage

M

Moosifer

Member
Location
Panama City Beach, FL
1960's Motel pool.
Pump / pool building, pool panel & pool across parking lot.
Pool panel fed with 10/2 from across the parking lot NO NEUTRAL, 2 hots and ground.
No pool lights.
Has metal ladders for pool access.
No bonding loop.
Concrete pool.

Ground in feed seems compromised. They called and said the 240v pump works but not the 120v lights on the patio. I told my guys to go cut the power so it can't be reconnected easily.

How do I make this safe? It will have its own meter soon (1 month+ waiting on power company), but still no bonding loop. Might check for rebar with big hammer in the future if required. Nothing visible.

How do I make it safe right now?

My plan until there is a new service.
1 - drive a ground rod
2 - run ground wire to pool panel and pump from ground rod
3 - swap pool pump breaker to GFCI
4 - repair or replace pool panel feed from motel and ensure it has a ground wire back to feeding panel.
5 - if replacing wire add a ground bar and neutral wire from feeding panel in motel?

Appreciate any help. I hate pool work.
 
Moosifer said:
My plan until there is a new service.
1 - drive a ground rod
2 - run ground wire to pool panel and pump from ground rod
3 - swap pool pump breaker to GFCI
4 - repair or replace pool panel feed from motel and ensure it has a ground wire back to feeding panel.
5 - if replacing wire add a ground bar and neutral wire from feeding panel in motel?
Click to expand...
1. Ground rod will do nothing to make the pool safer
2. Bonding pump to ground rod will do nothing to make the pool safer
3. Would only add minimal safety addition only if the pump is minimally faulting to ground, GFCI would then trip and shut it down.
4. A ground wire back to panel would only be minimally helpful in that if there is a fault it would provide a path to trip a breaker.
5. Again an addition of grounding is minimal help.
Only safety factor would be to create a proper Equipotential Bonding in addition to locate and repair voltage source. Proper EP Bonding would make the pool safe even in the event of larger voltage introduction into the pool area. Review of article 680 of the NEC would be appropriate.

Best recommendation, Turn a report to the local AHJ to have to pool shut down until repairs can be made. Anything short of total stop use could have life threatening consequences.
 
HUmmmm... a motel with no bondage ??? :)
My advise, from a liability standpoint, is RUN.
adding a ground rod on a branch circuit is not required and would likely add no safety.
You obviously need a good equipment ground and the pump should be GFCI protected.
The real bear is the lack of an equipotential bond. Look for a bond at the pump and perform some continuity checks to the ;ladders. Unless you see proof of a bond I wouldn;'t touch a commercial pool without inspection and and an engineer involved. At a minimum you are looking at saw cuts and jackhammers
 
Moosifer said:
1960's Motel pool.
Pump / pool building, pool panel & pool across parking lot.
Pool panel fed with 10/2 from across the parking lot NO NEUTRAL, 2 hots and ground.
No pool lights.
Has metal ladders for pool access.
No bonding loop.
Concrete pool.

Ground in feed seems compromised. They called and said the 240v pump works but not the 120v lights on the patio. I told my guys to go cut the power so it can't be reconnected easily.

How do I make this safe? It will have its own meter soon (1 month+ waiting on power company), but still no bonding loop. Might check for rebar with big hammer in the future if required. Nothing visible.

How do I make it safe right now?

My plan until there is a new service.
1 - drive a ground rod
2 - run ground wire to pool panel and pump from ground rod
3 - swap pool pump breaker to GFCI
4 - repair or replace pool panel feed from motel and ensure it has a ground wire back to feeding panel.
5 - if replacing wire add a ground bar and neutral wire from feeding panel in motel?

Appreciate any help. I hate pool work.
Click to expand...
What do you think that would accomplish?
Without the required perimeter bonding this pool is not safe and should not be used.
I would not touch this project for a million dollars!
 
augie47 said:
HUmmmm... a motel with no bondage ??? :)
My advise, from a liability standpoint, is RUN.
adding a ground rod on a branch circuit is not required and would likely add no safety.
You obviously need a good equipment ground and the pump should be GFCI protected.
The real bear is the lack of an equipotential bond. Look for a bond at the pump and perform some continuity checks to the ;ladders. Unless you see proof of a bond I wouldn;'t touch a commercial pool without inspection and and an engineer involved. At a minimum you are looking at saw cuts and jackhammers
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks.
 
Write a report stating it must be brought up to current codes to be safe. You were the last professional on the job.

Yup. It means concrete saws and jackhammers.

If they don't want to do what you recommend, you at least have a paper trail with your observations and recommendations.

I had similar situation about 6 years ago on an indoor pool at a resort. They wanted to just "get it going". I wrote a report and submitted my findings and recommendations. I got crickets.

The electrical issues were only a part of the disaster. The mechanicals were beyond repair as well as the structure itself.

I did benefit as I snapped pics that I use for classes I teach in my industry. Most responses are, ''Woah":D
 
Moosifer said:
1960's Motel pool.
Pump / pool building, pool panel & pool across parking lot.
Pool panel fed with 10/2 from across the parking lot NO NEUTRAL, 2 hots and ground.
No pool lights.
Has metal ladders for pool access.
Click to expand...

I'd say its an AHJ call on the bonding.
The requirement to bond a pool started in the 1962 NEC.
 
I would do it for a cool mil.
I would tare it out and give them a brand new one and still walk with 1/2.

Wonder if there is such a thing as a fiberglass insert. Install it with a new deck,wiring and equipment.
Just a thought.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
No matter what the AHJ says, I would not touch the project.
Click to expand...
I have done allot of work on old pools,
Those old pool shacks usually have a super corroded panel,
A pool update involves a new pump and panel,
I relocate the panel away from the chlorine
Put everything on a 5ma GFCI breaker, pump, heater etc
#8 Green solid to the pool pump, heater etc.
Often old pool lights get removed and if replaced its fiber optic
 
Certainly a 1960's pool has likely needed some maintenance by now and has had opportunities for improving things to meet codes when making some of those repairs. Not just electrical improvements but other building code issues, health issues, etc.

Chances are there are other codes in violation that could shut it down as well.

My BIL once was the director of a bible camp. They did have a swimming pool and I remember one time they did some pretty major renovations to the pool just to be approved by the health department to be able to continue operating it. Don't recall what was all done but seems a lot of concrete was replaced in the process, great time to improve EPB even if health dept. wasn't looking specifically for that.
 
If you are uncomfortable with what you have come across just write them a letter outlining your concerns and decline their offer to work on it.

You have no authority to disconnect power to their equipment unless they allow it. If you do so, they are well within their rights to sue you. As they should.

It's clear from your suggestions you don't know how to make this right so it is best if they find a company that knows.
 
I had an inspection for pool bonding in a pool made from ICF blocks that would be coated later with plaster/epoxy to form the walls of the pool.

The contractor proudly told me that he had installed a Ufer to "ground the pool", and took me over and showed me that he had stubbed up a piece of rebar from the pool's footing to tie into. When I looked into the ICF forms, none of the pieces of rebar were touching one another (a common method of rebar splicing in ICF construction, it's actually recommended by the manufacturer is many cases), so there was no easy way to bond the reinforcement in the walls of the pool together since they were not electrically continuous.

It took awhile to explain that a pool is already "grounded" - it's literally in the ground - and what we were trying to accomplish with the equipotential bonding. I don't think they really ever understood the why of it, but they did make the corrections needed to get it done. The "Ufer" did, at least, provide a convenient point to tie all of the different bonding wires and reinforcement together before they poured the rest of the pool...
 
Since this pool is a public/commercial pool. Requirements are way more stringent.

They have to meet turnover rate requirements, comply and meet the current entrapment laws, signage, depth markings, etc..

I believe the two most important things on a pool, commercial or residential, is meeting current electrical codes and current entrapment codes.

An old pool like this will most likely not have the proper plumbing requirements to meet turnover rates. Good chance the plumbing is galvanized-another story.
Changes could be made to remedy this, but most of the time it's not worth it.

Most of it hinges on the condition of the structure as holes would need to be drilled for updated plumbing or nicheless LED lights. Bottom drains (usually a single drain which is not compliant) must be filled in.

Old wet niche light shells should be removed and filled in. Some are so old any new light will not fit or be secured properly. The tab for the set screw is usually gone. A lot of old pools have red brass conduit or galvanized. You'll have to dig behind the wall and bond them.

Not worth the effort on an old commercial pool. An old residential pool, yes. If the structure is sound, it's good to go.
 
tortuga said:
Often old pool lights get removed and if replaced its fiber optic
Click to expand...
No one does fiber optic anymore. I did 25 years ago. FiberWorks, part of Pentair had a line of lights. The drivers used halogen bulbs. Hotter than blazes!
The stranded fiber they used provided ok lighting but the ends at the driver needed to be trimmed periodically. They were a nice idea at the time, and I did a lot of renos using them.
About 20 years ago I moved on to the first generation of nicheless LEDS which is all I use today on new construction or renos.
 
Tulsa Electrician said:
Wonder if there is such a thing as a fiberglass insert. Install it with a new deck,wiring and equipment.
Click to expand...
For a fiberglass pool the old structure would most likely have to be removed.
Fiberglass manufacturers have a very specific method for installation specifically the base and the backfill process and material. A concrete structure below has the potential to collect ground water and could have an effect on the fiberglass even if some of the floor is busted out to allow for the exchange of ground water.
 
tortuga said:
I have done allot of work on old pools,
Those old pool shacks usually have a super corroded panel,
A pool update involves a new pump and panel,
I relocate the panel away from the chlorine
Put everything on a 5ma GFCI breaker, pump, heater etc
#8 Green solid to the pool pump, heater etc.
Often old pool lights get removed and if replaced its fiber optic
Click to expand...
None of that addresses the neutral to earth voltage that the bonding is designed to control.
 
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