Old school pool - no bondage

[Fred B]

So you have 5 contractors that say they will only do it if some rather extensive concrete work is done and all have same reasons why that is the only way to do it but that one guy comes along and says he can do it without all that concrete work you either fall for any of his explanations, are fixed more so on price and hopefully compliance if that is at stake, or just plain gullible. Hopefully the five that did tell you the proper way also did a good enough job of explaining why it needs to be done that way.

Only way to do it is to do it right. Wouldn't touch it otherwise. A slight ommission can be deadly.

 

[ptonsparky]

I would need to study pretty hard on a new pool, let alone fix an old .

 

[Little Bill]

I was asked a few years ago to do some electrical work on an old pool in an apartment complex. Basically just wanted new line voltage lights put in.
They had torn part of the deck up for some plumbing. I told them that I wouldn't touch anything unless the entire deck was ripped out. They agreed and I was able to bond the rebar and run new bonding to the new niches. I also replaced the old brass conduit with PVC to the niches, along with a new junction box. Ran new EGC in the conduit to the lights, added the potting compound. Installed new GFCI breakers for the pump and lights. Basically was able to confirm the bonding all around, and in the pool, and back to the equipment. No diving board and the hand rails were plastic.

Today, not sure I would take this on, but if I did, I wouldn't put line voltage lights in, only LED.

 

[coffeebean]

Only way to do it is to do it right. Wouldn't touch it otherwise. A slight ommission can be deadly.

I hated performing the annual pool inspections in the town I used to work for. There were a lot of older pools at apartment complexes and eventually refused to do them deferring the inspections to the Sub Code Official in charge, since he had to sign off anyway.

 

[petersonra]

Today, not sure I would take this on, but if I did, I wouldn't put line voltage lights in, only LED.

It seems to me that it would make sense to just ban electric lights of all kinds. Use fiberoptic pipes to bring the light to the pool instead of using electricity.

I don't know what you do with the millions of old pools out there. Even the EP bonding if done right does not really guarantee it is safe. It is a lot better than nothing though. I think code authorities should be looking at ways of retroactively making the EP bond more affordable so more people will do it.

Maybe cutting a slit into the surrounding concrete and putting a bond wire in it is an answer. A lot cheaper than basically removing the old concrete and replacing it.

 

[kwired]

Maybe cutting a slit into the surrounding concrete and putting a bond wire in it is an answer. A lot cheaper than basically removing the old concrete and replacing it.

How good of an EPB is that though?

If you cut a slit, lay the bonding conductor in and then fill the slit with a self leveling caulk, you have most the circumference of the conductor embedded in the self leveling caulk and little to in some spots maybe none of the conductor in contact with the concrete. It really needs embedded in the concrete when it is poured to be effective.

And remember the EPB is bringing all the places a pool user can touch to the same potential, even if it is not earth potential. Any "holes" in the EPB will tend to be at or at least closer to earth potential than areas that are well bonded and you end up with possible voltage gradients at/near any such "holes". So if you are trying to add an EPB to an old pool that never had one, you really need a pretty extensive network of bonding conductors in slits (if you find a way to make them actually bond very well) to even make it worthwhile or else you end up with a lot of holes in your bonding network.

 

[Moosifer]

Best to just avoid things outside one's areas of expertise. I don't think a few paragraphs of advice from internet friends is going to give you all that much.

Unless you are willing to spend the resources to learn, but that does not seem worthwhile for a single project.

One of those existing customer situations. Already getting a new service for the pool, etc. Want to make sure whatever is done is correct no matter who bonds the pool or what the inspector says needs done. Lots of pools in Florida so I'd rather learn and know for any other weird situations. Been doing lots of research. I'd be happy to let someone else run with it.

 

[kwired]

One of those existing customer situations. Already getting a new service for the pool, etc. Want to make sure whatever is done is correct no matter who bonds the pool or what the inspector says needs done. Lots of pools in Florida so I'd rather learn and know for any other weird situations. Been doing lots of research. I'd be happy to let someone else run with it.

If just updating the service or feeder to a pool panel or even replacing pump, control, etc. doesn't involve the equipotential bonding of the pool itself, other than such bonding ultimately should also bond to your equipment grounding someplace.

You shouldn't exactly be liable for any missing equipotential bonding however isn't a bad idea to at least have documentation that indicates there is potential concern over what kind of condition this may be in or even may be missing altogether, just as a CYA kind of thing plus it informs the owner that they have a potential liability on their hands. Get them to sign it to indicate they knew about it and it puts such liability on them more so than you should there ever be a liability case related to this issue.

Of course make sure there is bonding jumpers to anything you did have any direct activity with while doing what you are doing there like replacing a pool pump or similar activity.

 

[busman]

What do you think that would accomplish?
Without the required perimeter bonding this pool is not safe and should not be used.
I would not touch this project for a million dollars!

I had a very attractive customer (female) who had a death trap of a hot tub. I could not get her to understand how hazardous it was. I told her, "Miss, if there were two Playboy Bunnies in that pool with unlimited Champagne asking me to join them, I would refuse." She got it then and let me abandon it.

Mark

 

[petersonra]

You shouldn't exactly be liable for any missing equipotential bonding however isn't a bad idea to at least have documentation that indicates there is potential concern over what kind of condition this may be in or even may be missing altogether, just as a CYA kind of thing plus it informs the owner that they have a potential liability on their hands. Get them to sign it to indicate they knew about it and it puts such liability on them more so than you should there ever be a liability case related to this issue.

You are only liable if you accept the liability or a court determines you are liable. This is why you have liability insurance.

Also, you need quality legal help and not rely on advice from random people on the internet who have no legal expertise.

Once you start documenting stuff, you have a paper trail. IMO, and you need to review this with an actual attorney, you are potentially accepting liability by commenting in writing about things you did not work on. And given some of the crazier things people have suggested should be done on this very forum, you may be proving in writing you are incompetent. You really want to get on the stand and defend the idea that somehow pounding a ground rod at a pool will make it safer? You will get shredded. And this might be over something you did not even get paid for.

 

[Rjryan]

Go to mikeholt.com/pools Print the document “ How to Verify the Electrical System of a Pool is Safe in Accordance with NEC “ in conjunction with the video.
Don’t think you can make this pool safe with the present NEC without major changes.

 

[kwired]

You are only liable if you accept the liability or a court determines you are liable. This is why you have liability insurance.

Also, you need quality legal help and not rely on advice from random people on the internet who have no legal expertise.

Once you start documenting stuff, you have a paper trail. IMO, and you need to review this with an actual attorney, you are potentially accepting liability by commenting in writing about things you did not work on. And given some of the crazier things people have suggested should be done on this very forum, you may be proving in writing you are incompetent. You really want to get on the stand and defend the idea that somehow pounding a ground rod at a pool will make it safer? You will get shredded. And this might be over something you did not even get paid for.

True, good attorneys find ways around many attempts you may take to protect yourself.

I maybe shouldn't have used the term liable or should have at least worded things a little differently like saying you may have a higher risk of liability if.... Reality is your risk of liability for pretty much anything only goes away when you die - though some that risk still can linger through your estate, but at that point is not your problem anymore.

 

[pipe_bender]

Go to mikeholt.com/pools Print the document “ How to Verify the Electrical System of a Pool is Safe in Accordance with NEC “ in conjunction with the video.
Don’t think you can make this pool safe with the present NEC without major changes.

Thats a great video series, I just watched them all.
I did not realize pool fatalities are related to aluminum wiring, like the one Mike investigated with the 17 yo girl. Next time we do a pool were going to insist on all copper feeders and circuits.

 

[Rjryan]

Thats a great video series, I just watched them all.
I did not realize pool fatalities are related to aluminum wiring, like the one Mike investigated with the 17 yo girl. Next time we do a pool were going to insist on all copper feeders and circuits.

I have looked at a lot of videos on electrical testing of pools. Nothing I have encountered are as comprehensive or backed by studies and real life incidents. Mike has done a remarkable, informational backed job with a clear understanding of the NEC’s rules on pools.