Older 3 wire panel change outs

[kwired]

This permit is for a panel change out. Is your opinion this would require EGC extended from the disconnect?
AND are you stating this installation was not compliant in previous code versions?

Adds the question How is the panel case to be bonded?

Via an EGC.

Bonding the neutral is really no different than bootlegging the neutral to an EGC terminal at an existing two wire receptacle.

NEC does have some provisions for upgrading two wire receptacles and using GFCI protection. No such provisions for upgrading a feeder other than for feeders supplying separate structures that at one time were compliant bonding the neutral at the separate structure. That is one place you could still bond the neutral when replacing the panel.

 

[jap]

It has never been permitted to have a feeder within the same structure without an EGC. If you're saying that it was permitted let's see a code section to back it up.

I don't have a code section to back it up.

I just assumed if there was a time when 2 wire knob and tube was used, or, at the time when 2 wire "romex" without an equipment ground was used, there would not be a need for the feeder to incorporate an EGC either since there wouldb be no EGC in the branch circuitry to connect to the feeder EGC.

I guess I assumed wrong.

JAP>

 

[kwired]

I don't have a code section to back it up.

I just assumed if there was a time when 2 wire knob and tube was used, or, at the time when 2 wire "romex" without an equipment ground was used, there would not be a need for the feeder to incorporate an EGC either since there wouldb be no EGC in the branch circuitry to connect to the feeder EGC.

I guess I assumed wrong.

JAP>

I can say I've seen plenty of older things, from before 1950's when EGC's became required on all branch circuits that didn't have EGC's run with feeders. But there was little or no code enforcement in this area in those times so that doesn't necessarily mean it was code compliant and such practices did go on into even the 70's and 80's in some places mostly because there was no code enforcement and not as thourough knowledge of code by those doing installs as there became once enforcement was expanded to nearly everywhere.

 

[infinity]

I just assumed if there was a time when 2 wire knob and tube was used, or, at the time when 2 wire "romex" without an equipment ground was used, there would not be a need for the feeder to incorporate an EGC either since there wouldb be no EGC in the branch circuitry to connect to the feeder EGC.

Back in the days of knob and tube feeders were typically run in RMC so there was an EGC for the feeder even if the K&T had no use for it. This would keep the panel enclosure from possibly becoming energized.

 

[kwired]

Back in the days of knob and tube feeders were typically run in RMC so there was an EGC for the feeder even if the K&T had no use for it. This would keep the panel enclosure from possibly becoming energized.

What about when they ran say 8 AWG K &T feeder conductors, ran them in tubing for the final part into panel, but panel was slate and had porcelain fuse and switch blocks in it?

Most those I've seen still in use were likely the main service when they were new though.

 

[infinity]

What about when they ran say 8 AWG K &T feeder conductors, ran them in tubing for the final part into panel, but panel was slate and had porcelain fuse and switch blocks in it?

That's a new one for me.

 

[jap]

Back in the days of knob and tube feeders were typically run in RMC so there was an EGC for the feeder even if the K&T had no use for it. This would keep the panel enclosure from possibly becoming energized.

I on the other hand have never seen knob and tube run in a raceway.

Most generally it is run open on insulators in the attic and down the walls.

JAP>

 

[jap]

I can say I've seen plenty of older things, from before 1950's when EGC's became required on all branch circuits that didn't have EGC's run with feeders. But there was little or no code enforcement in this area in those times so that doesn't necessarily mean it was code compliant and such practices did go on into even the 70's and 80's in some places mostly because there was no code enforcement and not as thourough knowledge of code by those doing installs as there became once enforcement was expanded to nearly everywhere.

You and I run along the same path.

All knob and tube that I've seen was just that.

Porcelain knobs to attach the individual conductors to, and, "tubes" or sleeves installed to protect those conductors from damage when they passed through bored holes.

No raceway whatsoever in what I've come across.

Oh well,,

JAP>

 

[infinity]

I on the other hand have never seen knob and tube run in a raceway.

Most generally it is run open on insulators in the attic and down the walls.

JAP>

I'm talking about the feeder to the panel not the actual branch circuits. Are you saying that you see large feeder conductors run in K&T?

 

[kwired]

You and I run along the same path.

All knob and tube that I've seen was just that.

Porcelain knobs to attach the individual conductors to, and, "tubes" or sleeves installed to protect those conductors from damage when they passed through bored holes.

No raceway whatsoever in what I've come across.

Oh well,,

JAP>

I've seen limited amount of "black pipe" raceway in a few places. Usually a drop encased in brick and plastered over for say a switch, but with conductors emerging and transitioning to open K&T in an attic or crawlspace.

I'm talking about the feeder to the panel not the actual branch circuits. Are you saying that you see large feeder conductors run in K&T?

Can't recall seeing conductors larger than 8 AWG solid but yes I have seen them a time or two. And they often hit open porcelain plug fuse holders or a open knife/open bus switchboard on a slate backer board. Some were enclosed and flush in wall with what I assume is some kind of asbestos fiberboards with a metal access door - not bonded to anything of course.

They didn't seem to be extremely common in the average house, but may find them in larger houses or non dwelling applications. Most been replaced, occasionally old was abandoned in place though.

 

[jap]

I'm talking about the feeder to the panel not the actual branch circuits. Are you saying that you see large feeder conductors run in K&T?

Nothing large about what I'm talking about.

Most of the knob and tube wiring I've seen has been in old small houses 60 amps or less if that were lucky if they even had a 240v service.

Most were 30 amp 120v services that I've come across.

Not familiar with the "Large" knob and tube wiring you're referring to.

I'd like to see a pic of that type of K&T just out of curiosity.

JAP>