Older Home Wiring Option

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williamphelps

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eureka ca.
I have a slab house with no attic. I found some less than desirable wiring. Option one is rewire entire house (around $16,000). Option 2 repair what has been found and install AF breakers and let the breakers keep an eye on things. $3500. I am aware that a rewire is best, but customer has 4 kids in college. How much safer would the house be with AF breakers?
 
I would consider putting GFCI breakers in suspect areas and forget about AFCIs. You'll only start chasing your tail with old wiring and AFCI. If you could just rewire parts that you know about and also add some GFCI, I think it will be safer then what you have now.
 
How old is the house? Does it have EGs? MWBC were very common.
Some questionable practices were quite legal at one time.

GFCI, AFCI, or dual function breakers, at minimum you will need to isolate the circuits. Make sure the neutrals are not tied together anywhere but at the SE neutral bar if you attempt to use any of them.

We really haven’t had any issues with dual function breakers but generally they’ve been going on newer homes or circuits we’ve added.
 
Read the updates on your other thread.

Use sticky notes on the walls to keep track of your circuit layout.

IMO, the GFCIs will help once the carbon has built up enough to allow a ground fault. Too late? At least it’s tripping.

AFCIs with no ground fault function? Flip a coin.
 
If you do have MWBCs done properly, they are as safe as other wiring. However if you want AFCI protection for such you will need a breaker panel that supports AFCIs that work with MWBCs.

Just a design issue that might push you one way or the other.

The process of installing GFCI or AFCI devices will detect and force you to fix numerous wiring flaws (bootleg grounds, neutrals mixed on circuits, etc.) If enough of these are discovered than the cheap 'just change the breakers' might end up as expensive as a complete rewire.

Jon
 
winnie said:
If enough (flaws) are discovered than the cheap 'just change the breakers' might end up as expensive as a complete rewire.
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Especially for panel flippers adverse to wiring replacement devices.

Tracing 1st outlet for reset devices on load side of existing MWBC's, at counter spaces in kitchens & baths, and individual reset outlets may only be troubled by appliance defect.
 
Another question, given what was discussed before, is whether you'd want to touch it at all with all of the unknowns. Certainly replacing the panel/breakers will help detect some problem when they happen, but if you have a method for finding these illicit splices I'd be inclined to spend a day looking for more of them. You'll have to look for MWBCs, bootleg grounds, etc anyway otherwise when you change the panel.

I'd also get the "I know the whole place needs rewiring" in writing from the customer.
 
williamphelps said:
Option one is rewire entire house (around $16,000). Option 2 $3500.
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If the likelihood that option 2 will work OK is more than 100% x (3.5/16) = 22%, it's option 2.

But. . .
I'm not in the front lines for these kinds of decisions so don't give this advice much weight when you have the advice of veteran electricians.
 
To sway the 22% in one direction or another, half the people move after 7 years and almost all after 10 or 14 years, so there is a time horizon on your repair.
If your fix "breaks" after 7 years you probably won't be blamed.
 
If it's a house with no basement and no attic, you're looking at considerable drywall damage to be able to rewire it. Patching a house that has been turned into swiss cheese can be just as expensive as gutting the entire place and putting new drywall everywhere. And if you're going to have to tear off all the trim to get all the drywall off, you might as well put in new trim. Might as well update all the kitchen cabinets while you're at it.

That $16,000 rewire could easily turn into $35,000-$40,000 total renovation.

"Less than desirable woring" is a little bit too vague for me, honestly. I used to do insurance rewiring, and I seen what shoddy work can do. If I was honestly that concerned about it, you shouldn't want to entrust your life to a few breakers.
 
WasGSOHM said:
Which reduces the #2 option to about 10%. Except for the nuisance trips.
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For sure. If it's concerning enough to talk about rewiring the place, might as well tear it all out down to the studs and replace every stitch of it.

If it's not worth doing all that, then it's not really enough of a big deal to worry about at all. Put the breakers in for peace of mind and don't worry about fixing any of it
 
williamphelps said:
How much safer would the house be with AF breakers?
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None.

If they won't go for the rewire, leave it alone. The last thing you need is you getting in trouble because there was a fire and you were the last one to touch it. Just replacing the breakers with AFCIs and doing nothing else is going to show you knew of the problems and just put a band-aid on them.

You have to consider the liability here.

-Hal
 
I guess my last
9 out 10 odds
that you should go with a AFCI is based on no other problems and almost certainly there will be.

Ideal makes a circuit analyzer #61-165 or some such number.
Scoping out the job with one of these may reduce some of the uncertainty of what is behind the walls. Possibly three checks will tell you 90% of the story.
 
WasGSOHM said:
I guess my last
9 out 10 odds
that you should go with a AFCI is based on no other problems and almost certainly there will be.

Ideal makes a circuit analyzer #61-165 or some such number.
Scoping out the job with one of these may reduce some of the uncertainty of what is behind the walls. Possibly three checks will tell you 90% of the story.
Click to expand...
What is the HO's gripe?
 
WasGSOHM said:
I guess my last
9 out 10 odds
that you should go with a AFCI is based on no other problems and almost certainly there will be.

Ideal makes a circuit analyzer #61-165 or some such number.
Scoping out the job with one of these may reduce some of the uncertainty of what is behind the walls. Possibly three checks will tell you 90% of the story.
Click to expand...
Stupid question, not familiar with the circuit analyzer, what information would it be providing to assist with the uncertainty? I might find it a useful investment.
 
growler said:
I think at least half of the older houses I work on have "less than desirable wiring" and even a few of the newer ones.
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I've seen enough "less than desirable" wiring on new homes to just throw up. Guys that drill out a house looking like a heartbeat monitor, holes too close to the edge of the lumber, staples driven too tight, makeup looking like garbage, devices loose and crooked, panels looking like rat nests....and it all passes inspections 😕
 
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