One Reason the NEC Can be Difficult to Understand

[Pierre C Belarge]

Well I downloaded the ROP .... 998(? )pages.


I don't mean this to be a wise guy, but sincerely.... what should we do with this?

What would you expect the average electrician to do with this?

What you have stated above is most of the point I have been trying to express.
I teach anywhere from 3 -5 days/nights a week. The students range from brand new to the industry up to men in their 60s. They have backrounds of no college and barely getting through high school to engineers with degrees.

Basically they all come voluntarily as there is no CEU requirements where I am teaching.

These guys struggle with the NEC. The reading level of the NEC is close to college level, where most who graduate high school in this country have a 6th grade reading level.

The guys in my class struggle with the code, the get frustrated and then sometimes downright mad.
Over the last 10 or so years of training, I have become a lot more sympathetic towards the students. I understand their lives do not center around the NEC, work yes, not the NEC. It is just too difficult for them and the lack of time they have to put into it, coupled with the frustration, leads to them only learning what they have to.


Again, this leads back to...how can we help these guys who are soooo close to learning, to actually spend the time and learn?

What is their real reward?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Again, this leads back to...how can we help these guys who are soooo close to learning, to actually spend the time and learn?

What is their real reward?

Pierre,

I think it is very noble of you to have a desire to help. The cruel reality is with a few exceptions this is the survival of the fittest. The reward is they get to work more with their brains than their brawn and will probably make more money even if they continue to work with their brawn because of the knowledge base. The price is giving up time for family and fun to learn.

There are many types of electricians. Like you pointed out earlier, most of the ones that come to forums like this are at the top of the list for desire and motivation. The ones you mentioned in your classes that have a reading level below that which might be required to navigate the NEC are at a serious handicap. They did not learn in school (whether it was their fault or the system is another discussion). There is a basic skill set requirement to be an average to above average electrician and that includes a reasonable reading level, the ability to think abstractly, and some higher math (geometry and trig) is helpful. Now, if you want to become a business owner, get some knowledge in basic accounting, sales and marketing, and business law. This is not for the weak spirited or for those that want to have time off for the family. If that's the case, get a job.

I see I'm off ranting again, sorry.

I don't think you asked your question without already having your answer. Care to share your solution?

 

[joebell]

What you have stated above is most of the point I have been trying to express.
I teach anywhere from 3 -5 days/nights a week. The students range from brand new to the industry up to men in their 60s. They have backrounds of no college and barely getting through high school to engineers with degrees.

Basically they all come voluntarily as there is no CEU requirements where I am teaching.

These guys struggle with the NEC. The reading level of the NEC is close to college level, where most who graduate high school in this country have a 6th grade reading level.

The guys in my class struggle with the code, the get frustrated and then sometimes downright mad.
Over the last 10 or so years of training, I have become a lot more sympathetic towards the students. I understand their lives do not center around the NEC, work yes, not the NEC. It is just too difficult for them and the lack of time they have to put into it, coupled with the frustration, leads to them only learning what they have to.


Again, this leads back to...how can we help these guys who are soooo close to learning, to actually spend the time and learn?

What is their real reward?

Pierre,

Please don't take this the wrong way but what are your classes for? Are you preparing these people for some sort of licensing exam? If so the real reward would be obtaining the license.

In life there are many sacrifices that must be made you must look inside yourself and find out what is really important to you. If you want to succeed in this field/trade you must become "A student of the code" among other things. I know alot of guys that think once they have passed there licensing exam they feel they never have to open the code book again. I was once of that mind set and it is never too late to learn.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I do a license prep class, once a week. Those guys generally have motivation and are not the individuals I am speaking of.
BTW: My Test Prep Class is not so much a code class, as how to prepare one to pass the test by learning how to navigate the NEC, and Time Management skills. I can get just about anyone who has good reading skills to pass the NEC test.


My question(s) are for the average guy (90%) who are in the field, and some (2%) who actually come to classes. These classes are general classes of a specific nature, such as one on transformers, services, generators, commercial wiring, residential wiring, theory (my hardest class to teach), etc...

The electrician already has a preconceived notion of the NEC before I generally get to see them in class or out in the field. Most think of it in a sense of such as a pariah.

I know this is not endemic to the area I work in, I have spoken to people from a lot of different localities.

 

[benaround]

The reward in knowing the NEC , at least for an EC, is being able to install a job with the

least amount of parts (cost) and the highest amount of quality. Knowing the NEC is money

in your pocket. How much overkill do you see on jobs, the overkill is to cover the lack of

understanding what exactly is needed to do a compliant installation. On the other hand, it

is my opinion that it takes a lifetime to finally become an "Electrician", the old saying is true

" the more you learn, you realize just how little you know".

The part that gets me the most is when two or three of the' high ranking' members dis-

agree on a subject, all have code back-up for their view, who is right ? How is a newbee

expected to have an understanding of a subject that the seasoned can't agree on.

At any rate, Keep up the values you believe in Pierre, without "teachers" this trade will

not go far.

 

[rwreuter]

The reward in knowing the NEC , at least for an EC, is being able to install a job with the

least amount of parts (cost) and the highest amount of quality. Knowing the NEC is money

in your pocket. How much overkill do you see on jobs, the overkill is to cover the lack of

understanding what exactly is needed to do a compliant installation. On the other hand, it

is my opinion that it takes a lifetime to finally become an "Electrician", the old saying is true

" the more you learn, you realize just how little you know".

The part that gets me the most is when two or three of the' high ranking' members dis-

agree on a subject, all have code back-up for their view, who is right ? How is a newbee

expected to have an understanding of a subject that the seasoned can't agree on.

At any rate, Keep up the values you believe in Pierre, without "teachers" this trade will

not go far.

Often times (not all though) the overkill results from just not wanting to get into it with inspectors. For example, one inspector like this or that and another doesn't. So as a EC what do you do?

You can spend time arguing with the inspectors and lose $$$, because as you know inspectors are not always available to the "discuss" things with you and usually you end up doing what he wants anyways.

Your time as an owner can be better spent doing other things (unless of course it is a major stupid thing the inspector wants done(even then you have to pick your battles)) and it cost involved in sending your electricians BACK to the job site to "fix" the suspected violation.

Just easier in the long to over do some things to avoid the costly delays.

 

[benaround]

Often times (not all though) the overkill results from just not wanting to get into it with inspectors. For example, one inspector like this or that and another doesn't. So as a EC what do you do?

You can spend time arguing with the inspectors and lose $$$, because as you know inspectors are not always available to the "discuss" things with you and usually you end up doing what he wants anyways.

Your time as an owner can be better spent doing other things (unless of course it is a major stupid thing the inspector wants done(even then you have to pick your battles)) and it cost involved in sending your electricians BACK to the job site to "fix" the suspected violation.

Just easier in the long to over do some things to avoid the costly delays.

rwreuter, Larry Fine has a saying, "It's just as illegal for an Inspector to require something

that the 'Codes' do not, as it is to install not to 'code'.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Pierre,

What a great question.

I've read this thread with interest.

I wish there was some magic, and delightful, way to say, "Class, this is how it is. . . " and for those in the class to "get it" in that moment of presentation.

I have found that the "intent" I bring to attentive listening helps, but there are many things, that I am not familiar with, that I will attentively learn about, that I just can't make sense of. . . I haven't got the field experience to build upon with these new facts. Maybe I'll remember some of the class, some time in the future, when exposed to the subject in the field, but the learning will be different, rarely as meaningful.

Any one "learner" can really only benefit with the information that helps with what this one learner is doing. And, as the "teacher", I can only hope that I am engaging enough to capture the learner's attention, in the presence of the distractions the learner brings to the class.

My Mom will never post an image link from Photobucket in UBB code in a thread at a forum like this, even though she could learn how to do it. She just isn't interested in communicating like that. Her use of a computer is at a simpler level. . . mastering cut and paste is a lot for her, but she embraces it because it helps her edit the text she will print out. I can use every teaching skill I have, but, until SHE asks the question and gives attention to my answer, my skill won't matter.

 

[pfalcon]

Wow! I could get so off topic here. I'll restrain myself.

(A) Reading types fall in two classes: 1) Sight-reading; whole language 2) Phonic; advanced reading.

Comprehension of specs is aided by having (2). (1) is rated as 1st grade to 12th grade reading skill. (2) is rated as - "I'm still working on it" or advanced (beyond 12th grade). Another case of doing it the hard way provides better results. Most elementary skills focus on (1). It is far easier to introduce new words and concepts to those who learned (2) as opposed to those who learned by (1).

(B) Check your Meyer-Briggs personality type for Sensing/Intuitive

80% of the population is "Sensing" which also means they are looking for definitive, hardline, exacting statements of what to do. Not necessarily bad but not all things in life can be so defined. Spec statements that require judgement calls thereby are tough on 80% of the trade.

(C) Rhetoric

I understand referencing the ROP/ROC for some things in the NEC. However the fact that you have to use the ROP/ROC to fully understand something means it was not well written in the spec. Many times this just means it ought to be revised. Other times though it is because someone insists on using trade jargon where it shouldn't be used. The code needs to be written as its meant to be so that is says what is was meant to say. :grin:

So if we use the old 80/20 rule:
20% are advance readers
20% are intuitive
80% of the spec is well written

We get 0.20x0.20 = 0.04 or 4% of the population that reads 80% of the NEC with ease.
Doesn't mean the rest can't learn it. They just have bigger obstacles to climb.

 

[wawireguy]

I think the NEC should be written to be more straight forward. To many sections are written like a law book where you have to try and figure out what exactly the intent or meaning is. It seems like the NEC could be written so it's much easier to understand.

 

[pfalcon]

I think the NEC should be written to be more straight forward. To many sections are written like a law book where you have to try and figure out what exactly the intent or meaning is. It seems like the NEC could be written so it's much easier to understand.

I agree. Unfortunately the lawyers can't.

Simple language means leaving some issues to common sense. Lawyers make a lot of money convincing juries that there is enough wiggle room to allow the jury to indulge its desire to help an injured party. Since we require judges to be lawyers first, they aren't going to rein in the plaintiff's lawyer.

Pierre is running another thread discussing the definition of device. You should visit that one to see some of the problems with letting lawyers run the world.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The NEC is a legal document, used in a court of law most likely every day.
This is one of the reasons the NEC is so complex and some terms are generally foreign to most of us. The NEC is also a technical document, with many terms that are not properly understood and used in the field, as slang has become the most common method of communication for a lot of electricians.

It is this misunderstanding of terms that I find really holds back most electricians I teach. Once they are frustrated, it is difficult to get them to really focus and believe the Code really has a meaning and sense to it.

 

[cadpoint]

Style Manual

Style Manual

I’d like to suggest that you use or incorporation a lot of following:

2003
NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE
STYLE MANUAL​

The Style Manual sure does qualify what can be said in the code, why the code exists, and presents knowledge for understanding.

I was lucky enough to have this presented not so much by name but the ground rules and a good overview where laid out that was in the electrical classes that I took.

Knowing where, when, and why things are is way better than most think that they know, or think they have of the understanding of or about the code. (The Charlie statement-says it way better.)

I personally don't see how you can present (ROC -ROP's) with out engaging the former, if you previously stated it, I missed it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The NEC is also a technical document, with many terms that are not properly understood and used in the field, as slang has become the most common method of communication for a lot of electricians.

It is this misunderstanding of terms that I find really holds back most electricians I teach. Once they are frustrated, it is difficult to get them to really focus and believe the Code really has a meaning and sense to it.

I agree.

And the difficulty here is the entrenched, diffuse learning process.

The learning process is not easily localized, rather, many contribute. Many, who offer understanding to the "student", are, themselves, suffering under the illusions of trade slang.

The trade slang helps to enforce the popular meme, the self hypnotism.
The slang confused student, after effort, forms a "valuable" understanding of the NEC. This understanding is threatened by dispassionate examination of the actual terms and definitions of the core from which NEC understanding emerges. It is understandably threatening to have one's "valued" NEC understanding challenged by someone now claiming that THEY have the REAL understanding.

But the fact is. . . a large portion of those in our trade are suffering under popular slang based illusions.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
But the fact is. . . a large portion of those in our trade are suffering under popular slang based illusions.

Sometimes even the CMPs get caught up in this problem. If you go back to the 84 code the rule that is now found in 344.26 read as follows:

346-11. Bends--Number in One Run. A run of conduit between outlet and outlet, fitting and fitting, or outlet and fitting, shall not contain more than the equivalent of four quarter bends (360 degrees), including bends located immediately at the outlet or fitting.

The CMP was using the field meaning of fitting...that is a conduit body... when this section was written. Using the code definition of fitting and this rule under the 84 code you were permitted to have 360? of bend between each coupling. This was never the intent, but it is what the code rule said. The problem was corrected with the 87 code.
Even the use of the word outlet to mean box was not really a correct use of the term. The definition of fitting was exactly the same in the 84 code as it is now.

 

[gndrod]

The NEC is a legal document, used in a court of law most likely every day.
This is one of the reasons the NEC is so complex and some terms are generally foreign to most of us. The NEC is also a technical document, with many terms that are not properly understood and used in the field, as slang has become the most common method of communication for a lot of electricians.

It is this misunderstanding of terms that I find really holds back most electricians I teach. Once they are frustrated, it is difficult to get them to really focus and believe the Code really has a meaning and sense to it.

Hi Pierre,

Ditto on the terminology. Even some of the manufacturer's and supplier's have a hard time keeping up with slang, semantics and verbiage related to the NEC. When nomenclature changes, the buyer gets confused and frustrated along with the installer. It's like Madison clips and Steamboats...the poor apprentice gets tricked and overwhelmed. Instructors with a passion like yourself are getting rarer and that is a shame. Keep up the good work. rbj