Online Version Of Code

roger · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Let's hope Jim doesn't post a link to where he gets other free stolen tools.

Roger

jimwalker · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

I dont steal tools.Have no problem in buying them.I do have a problem when a private buisness talks local ahj in making there ideas a law and then not hand access to them without a charge.At the point that a county or town adopts them it is required they become available for free.They set there game up very well.I did not question this untill i had it pointed out to me.Think about it before you blame me.All i am actually doing is viewing a friends copy,and that is not illegal.
Also note i did not post a link.

[ April 21, 2005, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

iwire · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I do have a problem when a private buisness talks local ahj in making there ideas a law and then not hand access to them without a charge.

Jim no one talks the AHJ into anything, the other option for the AHJ is writing their own standards.

Would you would enjoy using a different code in each jurisdiction?

You have free access to the NEC at the inspectors office and at the library.

Someone pointed this out already but you seem to have stuck your head in the sand.

When a Lawyer / Attorney needs law books, the tools of their trade, they must pay a for profit company for those law books.

Yes like all citizens they could go to the library to read the books but a professional needs to posses the tools of their trade right at their fingertips.

I have no doubt you are doing more than looking at a friends code book.

I would bet you are using a hot copy of the NEC which does not make you a 'cool outlaw' it makes you a freeloader. :roll:

don_resqcapt19 · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim,

a law and then not hand access to them without a charge.

Did the state give you a free complete set of the traffic laws? The code and all other laws are required to be made available for free viewing by the unit of government that adopted them. There is no requirement that they provide you with a free copy.
Don

al hildenbrand · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Did the state give you a free complete set of the traffic laws?

I don't know about your State, Don, but each of the three States, in which I have tested for Drivers Licenses, have provided free copies of their Drivers Manuals. While the Drivers Manuals are not the word for word copy of the enacted legislation that comprises the traffic regulations, the Drivers Manual is what we are tested on.

Also, with respect to free viewing of the law or regulation, many traffic citations can be dismissed in court if the appropriate regulation is not posted within sight of the location of the "offense".

roger · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Al, many states do the same thing as far as examples when a person applys for an electrical licensing exam.

They give some sample questions and answers but this is far from giving you the full NEC.

Also, with respect to free viewing of the law or regulation, many traffic citations can be dismissed in court if the appropriate regulation is not posted within sight of the location of the "offense".

This is basically the same as requiring the inspector or AHJ to provide a code article and section when tagging a violation also.

Roger

[ April 21, 2005, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: roger ]

charlie b · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

As it stands right now, the NEC is a copyrighted publication. If you wish to possess a copy, you must pay for it. If you obtain a copy through downloading or duplicating in a way that deprived the copyright owner of the royalties, then you have broken the law.

Get over it!

If anyone doesn?t like that particular law, then you have some options. None of them require paying a fee to anyone.

First read the Constitution. It is available free on the Internet or at the local library. It tells you that you have the right to petition your government for redress of grievances.

Secondly, write to your Senators and Representatives in Congress. Their addresses can be found in a visit to the library. You can even send them email messages, and save the price of a stamp. If you don?t have a computer at home, you can send email from a public computer at a local library.

Third, write letters to the editors of local and national newspapers. This, too, can be done by email.

Fourth, stand at street corners and shout out your complaints. You could even hand out leaflets, but this would involve a printing expense.

Fifth, I have seen booths set up at several airports, with the intent of allowing anyone to make their opinions known to passers-by in a single, controlled location. Make a reservation for one of those booths, and tell the airline passengers about your complaint.

Finally, you could run for public office, on a platform of ?All laws must be made available for free.?

I?m sure you can come up with other no-cost methods of getting your message out.

al hildenbrand · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Roger,

Al Hildenbrand posted:
Also, with respect to free viewing of the law or regulation, many traffic citations can be dismissed in court if the appropriate regulation is not posted within sight of the location of the "offense".

Click to expand...

Roger posted:
This is basically the same as requiring the inspector or AHJ to provide a code article and section when tagging a violation also.

I think what you are saying in the quote above is closer to the violation citation that the officer hands out that has the legal reference included (at least the tickets handed out here include the statute number).

What I was alluding to, are all the regulatory signs that are posted along our traffic lanes. If there is no posting of the regulation, yet an officer issues a citation for violation of that regulation, many courts will dismiss the citation. The law has to be viewable, yes, and it has to be viewable at the location of the issuance of the citation.

Charlie B.

If you obtain a copy through downloading or duplicating in a way that deprived the copyright owner of the royalties, then you have broken the law.

The heart of the legal issue is whether public laws can be copyrighted, i.e., whether the copyright can survive becoming binding law in a given jurisdiction.

[ April 21, 2005, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]

charlie b · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:The heart of the legal issue is whether public laws can be copyrighted, i.e., whether the copyright can survive becoming binding law in a given jurisdiction.

Very true. But as it stands now, the fact that the NEC has been enacted into law in any number of jurisdictions does not change the fact that the NFPA holds a legal copyright on the publication itself. Perhaps the courts will someday rule differently; but that is how things stand today.

jimwalker · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

http://www.floridalawonline.net/const.html#statutes

jimwalker · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

We probably all feel differant on this issue.My personal belief is the county or state needed to make a deal with nfpa to use the copyrited nec.I feel that if i obtain a copy i have broke no law.We are intitled to view it free.What is the differance in my viewing the library copy or a friends.And if i so desire can copy the one at the library.

charlie b · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker: And if I so desire can copy the one at the library.

The library will not allow you to copy Shakespeare?s Hamlet, or Dickens? Great Expectations, or Chilton?s Auto Manual, or any other book, either. Their copy machines should have a posted warning to the effect that you are not permitted to copy any copyrighted materials in violation of the copyright (they probably have a more elegant way of wording it than that).

caj1962 · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

If you could make a copy at the library you would find buying the NEC is a lot cheaper
There are 711 pages in the 2002 NEC not counting the front or back sections or the preface. At $.25 a copy which is what my library would charge or $1.00 per page at the courthouse to copy a "law" that makes it $177.75 from the library and $711.00 from the courthouse. I think I got a heck of a deal from the NFPA

allenwayne · Apr 21, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

You want a free career or a free future get real

I bought mikes cd for what $100 dolars and when we adopt the 2005 I will buy that cd rom for what ever it costs.
Knowledge is priceless and all who want it free are looking for a bargin basement career.
I dug my ditches and have chiped my block out but I know I have several calls a day asking me can I do this I want to give the right advise.I didn`t get any of my answers free and don`t think the answers in the code changes will be free

al hildenbrand · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Charlie B posted:

The library will not allow you to copy Shakespeare?s Hamlet, or Dickens? Great Expectations, or Chilton?s Auto Manual, or any other book, either.

That's almost true. . .

A model code, such as the NEC, that is adopted into law in a given jurisdiction is the distinct exception to the above generalization.

The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals decision in Veeck vs. Southern Building Code Council Int'l, Inc., No. 99-40632 (5th Cir. June 7, 2002), holds that copyright protection does not prevent copying and dissemination of a copyrighted model code once it becomes the law.

Arguing that the funding of the existing Code creation process requires the enforcement of copyright is off the issue. The issue is the general public's right to know the law.

sandsnow · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

On a side issue. Our city maintains a microfilm file of all plans and related documents for all permitted work. All these records are available for free for public viewing. Copies of drawings are not permitted unless you are the design professional or have written permission. The other documents such as test reports, I'm not sure of the rules.

rbalex · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Right now Veeck only applies to the Fifth Circuit; Texas, Lousiana and Mississippi. Three other Circuits, including the First (NFPA's home territory) have essentially concluded the opposite. There are also two descents; one where six of the fiteen sitting judges agreed.

This one will eventually go to the Supreme Court.

celtic · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Charlie B posted:
The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals decision in Veeck vs. Southern Building Code Council Int'l, Inc., No. 99-40632 (5th Cir. June 7, 2002), holds that copyright protection does not prevent copying and dissemination of a copyrighted model code once it becomes the law.

Just for arguements sake...and some FYI:
Veeck vs SBBI#1

Veeck vs. SBBi #2

I do, however, buy the code book every 3 years, and the handbook every 6 (every 6 six years a codebook and a handbook).

iwire · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The issue is the general public's right to know the law.

I fail to see how the publics right to know the law is being violated.

I can see the law at the town hall, I can see the law at the library.

If I want my own copy I can purchase it.

How is this NEC issue any different from the other rules or laws I must follow?

I can not get a free copy of all my states laws.

al hildenbrand · Apr 22, 2005

Re: Online Version Of Code

Bob,

Veeck vs. SBCCII did go to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decided not to reconsider the Fifth Court decision.

On May 30, 2003 the Solicitor General of the United States Department of Justice essentially concluded that copyright law does not give a private organization the right to restrict individuals from making copies of the material incorporated by reference in the municipal codes of the two municipalities. The Solicitor General stated,

This case involves a comprehensive code specifically created for enactment into law and designed broadly to regulate the primary conduce of private parties, The court of appeals' holding that such a code may be copied by interested members of the public is correct, it is consistent with the views of the only other court of appeals to address the same issue and it does not conflict with any decision of any other court of appeals. There is a broad range of differing governmental uses of a wide variety of different types of privately copyrighted materials, In a few cases, the courts of appeals have addressed the issues arising from such uses; they have divide between those involving the incorporation of copyrighted codes into laws that directly regulate primary conduct and those involving laws that reference copyrighted materials. In future cases, the courts of appeals can be expected to develop the relevant differences between those two categories and thereby clarify the law in this area. To the extent a true conflict develops in the circuits, the court could then review the issue with the benefit of further refinement of the relevant questions by the courts of appeals. Accordingly, further review is unwarranted.

IMO, it is only a matter of time until other places in the country "host" the dissemination of a copyrighted model code and more litigation ensues.

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