Online Version Of Code

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Re: Online Version Of Code

Thanks for your replies, but you have taken this WAY too far. All I asked was a simple question, I had a test on a few sections on the code, and I just wanted to be able to print them out instead of lugging around my whole code book. I just thought that since every electrician needs to use the code, there might be a free download of it that some amiture web designer put on his page.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
lets look at something.Every 3 years they change a few words or add a new article.Just how many people does it take to do this.156 weeks at 40 hours per man 6,240 hours.I might be wrong but i think there is too much coffee and doughnuts.
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Then look at it this way...every 3 years just buy the "Changes to the yyyy NEC". You can pick and chose whomever you want to buy it from...be it Mike Holt, Stallcup, NJATC, Miller, Rosenberg...plenty at amazon.

In theory, you could use the first code you ever bought for your entire career.

At $65 for 6,240 hours it's still a bargin.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim, you should get active in the Code making process. Your eyes will be opened and you will be amazed at the complexity and fairness of the whole process. At that point, you would not be so anxious to destroy the NEC. :D
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by ideaman89:
Thanks for your replies, but you have taken this WAY too far.
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No such a thing, bud. :D

I think debates like these are excellent, as we can look at a situation like this and gain respect for all sides of the issue.

With my libertarian style philosophy, I am torn. I definutely believe that a private organization can do anything better than government can. A private organization needs to secure independent funds in order to maintain it's independence. Sales of the NEC have proven that capitalism largely works, as if the NEC were worthless, no one would purchase it or use it.

But I have paid for the softcover versions of the 2002 and 2005 NEC, and use the softcover versions exclusively. It would be nice if the NFPA created a codebook-priced membership that would allow us access to free searchable text online, with the purchase of of softcover edition. I would continue to use my softcover, as it is faster to find almost everything I look for, and handier to carry in the truck.

Upon occasion, searchable computerized text would be a nice thing to use, and wouldn't deprive the NFPA, IMO. I will not purchase the CD, as I would not use it enough justify the price. I will not join the NFPA, as I am poor and cannot justify parting with over $100 a year in membership fees to see documents.

Since I will not (at least until I have more disposable income to throw at such ventures) contribute more to the NFPA, they lose no revenue by allowing limited access to only the NEC to people who have spent the money for the paper edition. In my perfect world. :D
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Charlie,i am not out to destroy nec,while it often is poorly written it is better than having nothing.What i am out to do is change the way it is funded.Perhaps they could run an ad supported web page.It is not right to limit viewing or copying laws no matter if it's local,state,federal or nec.
While some are jumping on me for aquiring a free copy they see no problem in copy and paste in this forum.How is that differant.Is it ok to copy copy write material if only a paragraph at a time ?
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim,
Charlie,i am not out to destroy nec,while it often is poorly written it is better than having nothing.
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Have you ever submitted a proposal? If not you are part of the problem. The NFPA does not write the NEC. The users do.
Don
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Don ,that has nothing to do with what i am talking about.Personally i think they make sure they change enough to force us to buy the next addition.What will happen in 2008 if the 05 code does not change ? What if nothing needs to be changed ?
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
What i am out to do is change the way it is funded.
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Why?
Personally i think they make sure they change enough to force us to buy the next addition.What will happen in 2008 if the 05 code does not change ? What if nothing needs to be changed ?
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In that unlikely event, don't purchase the 2008 NEC. :p

I don't think the 3-year cycle is too often. How often would you edit it?
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

George,why is simple.It is a set of laws we are bound by,and laws are by law required to made available for free and can be copied without infringing on copywrite.I often find i am the only one at the job site that has a code book,many dont even own one.If it was available on line many would be using it.Then again some dont even own a computer.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim,
What will happen in 2008 if the 05 code does not change? What if nothing needs to be changed?
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How could that happen???you said that the code is poorly written, so changes will be required. Also this industry is not static, there will always be new methods and equipment that needs to be addressed by the electrical code.
As far as the requirement to use the most current code, that is addressed by your state, county or city. The NFPA has nothing to do with what edition of the code that a unit of government chooses to adopt.
Don
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Originally posted by jimwalker:
What i am out to do is change the way it is funded.
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Originally posted by George Stolz
Why?
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</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The NFPA is funded by sale of copyrighted model codes.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When a model code becomes law, the 5th Circuit Court says the law can be copied, inspite of the copyright.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Making copies without paying the NFPA for them threatens the existence of the NFPA.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Online access for the public to the Law is a new aspect of publication that is forcing re-thinking how a publisher makes money.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The NFPA and the existing code creation process is undeniably effective and should be maintained.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The way the NFPA funds itself will have to expand to other means than it's current manner, if the proceeds from sale of copyrighted work decreases on the heels of public access to "code as Law".</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

It occurs to me that one aspect of the Code adoption process almost certainly garantees sales for the NFPA, regardless of the online dissemination of the Code.

Right now I have my new copies of the 2005 NEC and the 2005 NECH. The NEC is not law yet, and won't be until my State adopts it into law.

By virtue of being a working electrician, I have to learn the new Code by the time it becomes Law, or else I create problems for myself and my customers. I time my continuing education classroom face time to coincide with the introduction of the new Code, before it is Law.

I am basically an early adopter, and must purchase the Code while it is clearly still protected by copyright.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jimwalker- NO offense to you personally. You really don't understand the process for developing the NEC. It is an educational experience to attend a Code panel meeting, admission costs you nothing. You will appreciate the many hours involved in developing one of the most democratic and widely used documents.
At least 400 Code-making Panel members are involved in the deliberations to amend the Code. The must have a place to meet, NFPA staff must be there to record the actions, ballots must be mailed out, materials must be photo-copied and recirculated to all members, a committee report must be printed and available to the public, the correlating committee must meet and vote on the amendments, editors must edit the text, the document must be printed. NONE OF THIS IF FREE.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim
Laws do not have to be free. They have to be available to be viewed for free.
For example:
The local jurisdictions will make available their laws at the building departments. One can ask for a copy of the law and the BD will charge a per page cost for the copies. The actual code itself stays at the building department for further use by the others who may need to view it for free. I have seen some who will sit there and hand copy some pages, but I have yet to see the BD hand out free copies.
Take a look at an attorney's office, they have copies of the different laws, but they paid for them.

The real change that has the NFPA concerned is the web. This is where someone can post a copy and anyone can use it.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

AL ,i do see that point.And there is also an issue that causes a problem if 2002 is available on line to those that are still on 99.Or do we have the right view the laws of any state,county that has put 05 into law before our ahj does ?
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Pierre,do you agree that if i have a copy of nec either hard print or CD that i can legally allow you to copy any part or all of it ? Isn't that what your suggesting the building department can do.It is not copy writed if its law.Now if i sell you a copy then i probably have broke the law.Take some time and see how hard the recording industry is trying to fight this.They are loosing in court.If any one is breaking the law it is the building department when they charge me for a copy.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

Jim Walker posted:
do we have the right view the laws of any state,county that has put 05 into law before our ahj does ?
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I think that is a great question.

Let me turn it just a little bit.

As a resident of Minnesota doing business only in Minnesota, do I have the right to view the oline laws of the State of Florida? I say, absolutely. Law is law. It is not copy protected.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

So far about the only thing we all seem to agree on is that we have a right to view nec free.How we go about it seems to be the issue.Laws are not copywrite protected.I think nfpa needs to wake up and figure something out fast.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

My guess would be that NFPA would have to charge licensing fees to all the government agencies that adopt their model codes. They in turn would pass the costs on to the users (along with administrative costs and contingencies) in the form of higher permit and licensing fees. Everyone would end up paying more, in fact.
 
Re: Online Version Of Code

"My guess would be that NFPA would have to charge licensing fees to all the government agencies that adopt their model codes. They in turn would pass the costs on to the users (along with administrative costs and contingencies) in the form of higher permit and licensing fees. Everyone would end up paying more, in fact. "

That may well be the solution.At least the true end user (building owner) would pay the bill.Then again maybe someone will compete with nfpa and the price will drop and perhaps a better writen book.
 
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