open neutral and energy usage

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chevybeaumont

Member
an open neutral from the supply lines on 3 wire
was replaced the line1 and line 2 also showed shorting together utility company replaced service line from house to pole along with transformer . customer originally complained of melting main breakers and dimming lights also mentioned extreme high bills.

they say now there bills have dropped by over 65%
any expanation of how the usage could change concidering the problem was on the utility side of the meter.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: open neutral and energy usage

Excessive voltage drop and low power quality resulted in poor operation and poor efficiency of appliances and equipment. These losses result in excessive heat which would explain the "melting" breakers. That would be my guess.
 
charlie

charlie

Senior Member
Location
Indianapolis
Re: open neutral and energy usage

If this is a dwelling, most of the load would be resistance loads. Therefore, the lower voltage would cause their bill to go down, not up. This doesn't make sense to me.
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Ed MacLaren

Senior Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

In the case of an open neutral in a circuit that has an unbalanced load, the increase in voltage, if any, always occurs on the side that has the higher resistance, that is, the side with the least load connected. It would be offset by a drop in voltage, and power used, on the side with the greater load.

Just to illustrate what Charlie has stated, in the basic example below, the total watts goes down when the neutral is opened.

Sounds like the customer is looking for an opportunity to stick it to the POCO. What they could do is claim compensation for any damaged equipment.

Ed

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chevybeaumont

Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

i have reviewed the bills and there has been an extreme energy usage drop the average before the service was changed the average was 150kw/day and are now at 35-40kw/day
now this is underground service lines wich were showing line 1 and line 2 were also going to earth ie resistance between both lines also neutral was burn,t off underground the line also had no ground fault interupter at the transformer and the only service off this transformer is this house the lines for water to the house are also plastic therefore grounding in the house is supplied by copper lines wich run 3 feet under the concrete slab and expand the lenght of the house approx 30ft according to an article written by mike holt open neutral burns down house this could be possible any comments?
 
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chevybeaumont

Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

also key note wich may help, the house is heated with a forced air electric heater as backup to the woodstove requerments call for 60amp breaker. before the service wires were changed heater would trip 60 amp breaker as soon as elements turned on so a 100 amp breaker was used now it has been replaced with the same 60 amp breaker that was tripping and now it does not trip any explanation?
 
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johna

Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

Chevy - If you'd use just a little punctuation every now and again, like a period at the end of a sentence, it sure would be easier to read your posts! Thanks.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: open neutral and energy usage

Something is missing in this picture.A 240 volt heater would not care if you had a neutral.The time to find this problem was before the wire was changed.
 
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rattus

Senior Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

Who is old enough to remember, "I Love A Mystery" on radio? Wish I could have been at the site before they fixed the problem. Doesn't make sense if the fault was on the supply side of the meter.
 
charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: open neutral and energy usage

I don't know who would be willing to admit it, or in sufficient command of his mind to recognize it. :D The original series ran from 1939 to 1944. :eek:
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Re: open neutral and energy usage

The Mike Holt article referred to also mentioned increase usage. I took exception with that then and I take exception with it now.

The article talks about a house fire that was blamed on an open neutral. I contend, because of the symptoms before the fire, that in that case the open neutral was on the primary side of the transformer causing primary voltage to appear on the grounding conductor at the house. There was no water main, water was supplied by a well in this rural area.

If your problem is an open neutral and leakage to ground before the meter I can see no reason for it to affect the electrical usage. The overheated breakers are a symptom of something going on here that would be consistant with increased usage. When you find the cause for the overheating you will find why the bill was so high.

-Hal

-Hal
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: open neutral and energy usage

"line1 and line 2 also showed shorting together "
Not sure this is what happened but is possible.If one of the lines (lets say L1) had leagage ( not a short just leakage)to the house side of the open neutral ,then from L2 to the neutral might have been higher than 120 volts and from L1 to neutral at the panel would be partly cancelled leaving a value less than 120 volts.This is just some guess work.Whatever the circuit was before repair will never be found now.
 
peter d

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Re: open neutral and energy usage

chevy, there is a lot more to this story than what you have described, because it just doesn't add up.

You didn't mention the location of the meter. Where is it? What type of service lateral is is? Conduit or directly buried cable? What are the soil conditions? Was there excavation nearby that damaged the lateral?

If the service lateral is after the meter and is directly buried cable, a nicked wire could cause leakage into the ground which would consume power.

the line also had no ground fault interupter at the transformer
Click to expand...
This is a strange comment. Why would there be any need for ground fault protection?
 
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chevybeaumont

Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

okay here goes try and explain this again.The underground cable was not in any casing . The transformer is approx 100ft from the home and the meter is located at the home. this condition of high bills has been for over 10 years.when teting with a voult meter set to ohms line 1 and line 2 at the meter base showed a very large contininuity.as showed up in the home also. The neutral being burned ofF completly may have been a reult of these two lines connecting to each other through the ground causing the ground fault.
Now what i am having a little trouble explaining here may be this,the meter is not going to stop this ground fault into the house corect? therefore would we not say if the ground fault is on either side of the meter the ground fault is still there running through the entire house. now in the diagram posted above if we create a short between lines 1 and line 2 and ground in the diagram above and the neutral is also shorted in the same area under the ground would this create a different senerario, ie customers over usage of electricity?

ps thank you for the quick and concienciouse replys it is very appreciated. just wish there was somewere i could see a lab experement demonstrating this senario.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: open neutral and energy usage

Perhaps a lab set up would not be a bad idea.Set up some ways to add leakage.If the line between transformer and meter had leagage i don't see the meter reading it or going thru his main breakers.Something is still missing.Did they replace his meter ?
 
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chevybeaumont

Member
Re: open neutral and energy usage

also another note on this cutomer complained of noisey meter sound equivelent to that of a transformer, Remedy would always be that utility would have to tighten service side of connections at meter base line 1 line2 and change the meter. never connections at customer side i,m thinking because of heat and resistanceconnections were backing off. Here is a thought that i,m not about to try but maybe an answer in theory.
if we took both sides of 220 and jammed them into ground on customer side we would get a draw correct?
 
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