OTJ(On-The-Job) training

[weressl]

One comment about OTJ. There are NO controls. One does not know if one learns the right stuff or a shortcut that may produce appearent good result but may have some serious shortcomings. I see this a lot with maintenance work, but new installations also.

Let me give you an example. This is an industrial issue, but you may inderstand the equivalent if you think of a panelboard in a dwelling unit.

Multiple tray cables entering into the same vertical section of an MCC are routinely passed through a single 3" knockout. The cables are not secured at the point of entrance by a box connector and since there are multiple cables entering through one hole that is not designed for the purpose the voids between the cables compromise the NEMA rating of the enclosure.

 

[crossman]

One comment about OTJ. There are NO controls. One does not know if one learns the right stuff

Which is why the old myths in the electrical industry will never die.

"Electricity always takes the least resistant path to ground"

"If you raise the voltage, you will always lower the current"

"The worst shock you will ever get is getting in series with the neutral"

"Electrons always want to travel into the earth"

Erroneous information is passed through the generations because of a lack of understanding.

 

[charlie b]

One does not know if one learns the right stuff or a shortcut that may produce appearent good result but may have some serious shortcomings.

That brings to mind the famous quote from Vince Lombardi"

Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[zbang]

Well, see, there's the problem... I think that OJT has it's place, but you've got to have a good and knowlagable instructor. You (the trainee) also need to actually understand what's being taught (and ask questions), and you (the trainer) need to correctly teach the reasons for doing something. Training "because that's the way we do it" seldom cuts it for me.

A simple case: wear a safety harness when you're in the manlift. The bad trainer says "do it because I said so/it's policy/etc". The better trainer says "in the unlikely event that you fall out of the bucket, you're not going to hit the ground from 40'. The harness may hurt you, but not as much as hitting the street will. The company knows that it'll take a little extra time to put it on, and that's OK."

I'm sure someone will pick this apart . that's OK.

 

[weressl]

Well, see, there's the problem... I think that OJT has it's place, but you've got to have a good and knowlagable instructor. You (the trainee) also need to actually understand what's being taught (and ask questions), and you (the trainer) need to correctly teach the reasons for doing something.

Well, OTJ implies that there is no formal instructor. Nor there is implication that the senior person who is to pass on the knowledge has received any formal training. He is just another OTJ except that he is been around for a while.

 

[crossman]

There is no doubt that OJT is the most important part of an electrician's training. However, in conjunction with said OJT, participating in a properly structured academic program such as a Department of Labor registered apprenticeship program will certainly benefit the trainee in the end.

 

[brian john]

The best trained anything can be slackers. I worked with quite a few not so good electricians on my way up, but I wanted to be more than that.

It does not take a genius (I am proof of that) to take pride in your work, learn the codes and do quality work.

 

[pfalcon]

That brings to mind the famous quote from Vince Lombardi"
Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Practice makes perfect only what is practiced; which if wrong will be made perfectly wrong.

 

[peter d]

While I agree with what you are saying, the problem is that there is no way we can create a perfect system to train electricians.

It's true, an electrician can "rope" houses for 4 years, study a bit, take the test and not have a clue how to bend EMT or wire a motor starter. Likewise, a guy can bend 4" EMT and put switchgear together all day long, and get flustered on a 3-way switch set-up.

Many states, including all of the New England states (my home area), requires a set amount of classroom training in addition to the OJT.

OJT coupled with classroom training and continuing education once an electrician obtains a license is the best way to train, IMO.

 

[brian john]

OJT coupled with classroom training and continuing education once an electrician obtains a license is the best way to train, IMO

At present it is the best we have, but if the individual has no pride in his work you'll get what you'll get.

Some of the CEU classes I have taken were all residential but complied with local requirements. Little help for a commercial electrician. Yet I took several courses from Lyncole, Bussman and received certification in IR yet the local jurisdictions would not recognize the CEU's.

 

[roger]

One comment about OTJ. There are NO controls. One does not know if one learns the right stuff or a shortcut that may produce appearent good result but may have some serious shortcomings. I see this a lot with maintenance work, but new installations also.

I absolutely agree.

I see this in many engineers designs that have not taken the time to educate themselves in code compliant design.

They just jump on-board with a firm and think they can design with OJT comments from engineers in the firm, it's a shame.

Oh wait, this isn't the point of the discussion is it? :grin:

Roger

 

[DUCKMAN]

OJT coupled with classroom training and continuing education once an electrician obtains a license is the best way to train, IMO.

As an instructor, and a systems contractor in Mass, I realize the limitations of both OJT and classroom training. I can teach all of the theory and code in the class, I can even demonstrate how to bend EMT, but many subjects need to be learned in the field. Unfortunately, just because a person is licensed does not mean that they will be a good trainer. It takes time and patience to properly train an apprentice, which are both often in short supply on the jobsite.

 

[peter d]

As an instructor, and a systems contractor in Mass, I realize the limitations of both OJT and classroom training. I can teach all of the theory and code in the class, I can even demonstrate how to bend EMT, but many subjects need to be learned in the field.

Exactly, that's why we will never have a perfect system, and that those who want to succeed in this industry will naturally do so by learning as much as they can in the field and the classroom, and forums like this.

 

[brian john]

just because a person is licensed does not mean that they will be a good trainer.

Nor does it mean they will be a good electrician. You have to want to do quality. OJT classroom or not

 

[480sparky]

And there never will be a perfect way to train electricians.

I believe a mix of OTJ training, mixed with a structured classroom environment, is ideal. But that's based on how I learned.

Some people take to this trade like ducks to water, and OTJ is all they need. Then there's guys like me, who need to crack open more than just the codebook to understand what's going on.

 

[brian john]

Sparky:

There are installers basically assembly line electricians, that never use theory and once done with school never crack a book again, then there are electricians and may or may not use theory but always continue to further themselves in their profession.

I had (HAD) an employee that I tried to explain using a megger too. his exact words were (sort of) "I want a job where I can install 2X4 lay in's, install switches and outlets and at 3:30 I plan to go home and drink 6 cold ones and never think about this G D place"...

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Sparky:

There are installers basically assembly line electricians, that never use theory and once done with school never crack a book again, then there are electricians and may or may not use theory but always continue to further themselves in their profession.

I had (HAD) an employee that I tried to explain using a megger too. his exact words were (sort of) "I want a job where I can install 2X4 lay in's, install switches and outlets and at 3:30 I plan to go home and drink 6 cold ones and never think about this G D place"...

He waits until he gets home? That one's a keeper!

But seriously... lord knows much of our work is repetitive, and somewhat mundane. If you've seen one trading floor, data center, or cubicle farm you've seen them all. Personally I enjoy a challenge, but there are times, like when I'm doing the 25th electrical closet that is exactly the same as the last 24, when I want to just shoot myself. But there is a place for everybody.

Apprentices have to make it their personal business to avail themselves to both the OTJ and the theory. It's not a perfect system. If a month is spent on fire alarms, and the apprentice doesn't get near one in real life OTJ it won't do much good 6 years later. The same especially holds true for pipebending. It's a science yes - but it's also an art and you can't teach finesse. It has to be experienced.

Every business has a bell curve. The top 10% will accomplish 60% of the work. If the goal is to get 100% production and dedication out of 100% of the staff - it's a pipe dream.

 

[billsnuff]

experience has taught me that not everyone learns the same.

i try to use........

tell me (books and classroom)

show me and tell me (demonstrate and reinforce)

let me try (hands on)

you can tell which ones don't need all three.

owners manual!!!!! we don't need no stinkin' owners manual.....

 

[DUCKMAN]

Nor does it mean they will be a good electrician. You have to want to do quality. OJT classroom or not

Agreed, but my point actually was that even a good electrician may be a poor trainer. Training requires a different skillset than doing.

 

[brian john]

Training requires a different skillset than doing.

VERY TRUE, then there are those that will not train for fear of losing their jobs. I worked with a few of these.