OTJ(On-The-Job) training

[zbang]

Well, OTJ implies that there is no formal instructor. Nor there is implication that the senior person who is to pass on the knowledge has received any formal training. He is just another OTJ except that he is been around for a while.

While "OJT" may not imply a formal or knowledgeable instructor, it doesn't mean that they don't exist and that shouldn't teach. I think everyone should teach what they know well, and should be able to back up the teaching with authority (codes, guides, etc). However, a good student asks questions and doesn't take "because that's the way we do it" as an answer. (Aye, there's the rub. Does the teacher teach what they don't know and does the student blindly accept what they hear? That can happen anywhere, including the classroom. I think far to many students are too accepting of whatever they hear.)

One of the best stage riggers I know has been doing it for 25+ years, and does a lot of OJT to newer riggers. He also has professional certs, and if I recall correctly, a degree in mechanical engineering. I would put his OJT on the mark of any classroom. (It is -not- a substitute for formal training, but quite useful none-the-less.)

(Back to my coffee :grin: )

 

[wireman71]

I'm gonna toss my 3 cents into the ring here. Some of the most knowledgeable (code wise) and proficient electricians I've worked with had no formal training. They study the code at work, discuss it at lunch, talk with the inspector and those more knowledgeable than themselves. In general the formaly trained electricians I have worked with know less code and are not as adept at designing systems. I'm not saying that formaly trained electricians don't know what they are doing but what I am saying is that a non-formaly trained electrician can be just as or more proficient.

 

[brian john]

Not that it matters but I never served a formal apprenticeship, when I applied (with 2 years in the trade) I was asked if I ever considered being a plumber. Two years later I had my first masters.

 

[crossman]

I'm not saying that formaly trained electricians don't know what they are doing but what I am saying is that a non-formaly trained electrician can be just as or more proficient.

We are going in circles. I can make the exact same claim for formal training, and I'll say it now:

A formally trained electrician can be just as or more proficient than a non-formally trained electrician.

I think that each of us is going to favor the method with which we became electricians. There is no doubt that great electricians are made by both informal training and formal training. However, I will say that percentage-wise, formally trained electricians will be more knowledgable than non-formally trained electricians. This is not a "dig" at those of you who had no formal training. The fact that you are on this forum shows that you are motivated, knowledgable, interested, and want to learn and share your knowledge. You guys are the cream of the crop.

Still, every formally-trained electrician has at least been exposed to theory, code, etc. Can you say this for all non-formally trained electricians? But does that make the formally-trained guys all become good electricians?
No. Attitude and motivation are the most important factors.

 

[brian john]

Attitude and motivation are the most important factors.

1000% correct.

 

[480sparky]

But seriously... lord knows much of our work is repetitive, and somewhat mundane. If you've seen one trading floor, data center, or cubicle farm you've seen them all. Personally I enjoy a challenge, but there are times, like when I'm doing the 25th electrical closet that is exactly the same as the last 24, when I want to just shoot myself.

Don't ever be a drywaller, then.

Measure, cut, hang. Measure, cut, hang. Measure, cut, hang.

Then, you hit 30 years, and your back & knees are gone.

Then you start taping and mudding.... taping and mudding...:smile:

 

[dlhoule]

Training?

Training?

Now me, I am just a young, slightly experienced Master Electricain, who greatly appreciates all the knowledge I can tap into on this great forum.

I am currently trying to find out who did some work here in the plant where I am currently employed.

They ran 4 separate conduits from 4 small exhaust fan motors to 4 separate bus plugs with a green wire hanging down to turn them on and a red wire to turn them off. At least they used the correct colors. These are 1/2 Hp motors. Somehow I do not think those 60 amp fuses are going to offer much protection.

I wonder, formal training or on the job training?

 

[brian john]

I wonder, formal training or on the job training?

Either or makes no difference, as I have said several times (and others have stated the same) in this thread in one form or an other it is all about integrity, self respect, no amount of OJT or schooling can instill this in anyone.

 

[mdshunk]

We're a little bit spoiled on the Internet, since we can seek out people who have a genuine interest in progressing and learning about this trade. I am continually disheartened when I look at the electrical labor pool in general, and repeatedly discover that the average electrician doesn't want to learn. We're a group of rare people here.

 

[DUCKMAN]

We're a little bit spoiled on the Internet, since we can seek out people who have a genuine interest in progressing and learning about this trade. I am continually disheartened when I look at the electrical labor pool in general, and repeatedly discover that the average electrician doesn't want to learn. We're a group of rare people here.

I have several students that have made 3-4 attempts at completing the first year for their apprentice school (one-night/week). I told one of them he could have earned an MBA by now. Some of them just could not care any less about learning.

 

[wireman71]

One of the guys I work with is in a school while working, 3rd-4th year. Today while working he said "you mean I have to count the neutrals for derating." LOL! I'm just tired of the school mentality that non-schooled electricians do not know code.

 

[roger]

One of the guys I work with is in a school while working, 3rd-4th year. Today while working he said "you mean I have to count the neutrals for derating." LOL! I'm just tired of the school mentality that non-schooled electricians do not know code.

Wireman, this question can be answered yes or no depending on the system and loads served, so considering it was asked by an apprentice, I don't think it's that bad of a question regardless of where the training comes from.

Roger

 

[crossman]

An interesting experiment could be performed:

Take 100 typical electricians with 3 years of only on-the-job training. Take another 100 typical electricians with 3 years of on-the-job training combined with 3 years of formal training.

Give them all a test covering basic electrical theory and NEC.

I wonder which group would score higher on average?

Don't get me wrong, I am not taking anything away from those without a formal education. A person who wants to can learn this stuff on his own. But for those who seem to imply that OJT only is better than OJT + formal classroom training, well, I just don't see how that can be on average.

Of course, there is nothing saying that book knowledge makes a better mechanic, but I just don't see how it can hurt.

Now, to you guys and girls that made it to the top with no formal education, I salute you!:grin:

 

[76nemo]

Talk to some older fellas in the field about pulling seperate neutrals per leg and why. Just when you think you have it all covered, here comes modern electronics?
I am not a construction guy. I salute you all. I haven't even begun to touch new revisions since the '05 book. I don't run the service. I just make sure the equipment runs the way it should.

 

[zbang]

Take 100 typical electricians with 3 years of only on-the-job training. Take another 100 typical electricians with 3 years of on-the-job training combined with 3 years of formal training.

3 yrs vs. 6 years? Or do you mean 3 years total as a combination of classroom & OJT? (I assume so, just checking.)

Either way, it seems like the thread started by suggesting that classroom training was far preferred to OJT, and that OJT should actually be avoided because of potentially unqualified instructors. I think that most people will acknowledge that they both have a place in learning the trade where the student is willing to learn and the instructor is qualified to teach.

Book knowledge is a wonderful thing, the understanding gained is what makes a competent electrician into a good one, and as far as I'm concerned, it's the only way to learn something like load calcs. But how about bending pipe? There's no substitute for running a couple thousand feet of EMT with a good pipe (wo)man to get the knack of it. A classroom won't do it.

 

[crossman]

I am talking about 3 years OJT only versus 3 years of OJT and formal schooling together like is done in a DOL registered apprenticeship program.

 

[brian john]

Cross:

I do not think you can make a blanket statement to cover ALL electricians.

1. Most electricians are construction electricians (commercial and residential) and do little or nothing with theory, but should have code.
2. Most service electricians do little or nothing with theory BUT NEED CODE.
3. Most electricians I deal with, construction, service, industrial, that served a full apprenticeship cannot calculate the primary and secondary current of a 3 phase transformer when given the KVA, voltage and current.
4. I'd do feel a full apprenticeship instills a certain level of professionalism and does allow the school operators to see who will be best for certain aspects of the trade.
5. For me a good electrician should at a minimum carry a code book and when not sure about something or when entering into a new type of work, pools, gas stations, ect cracks the book.

 

[peter d]

We're a little bit spoiled on the Internet, since we can seek out people who have a genuine interest in progressing and learning about this trade. I am continually disheartened when I look at the electrical labor pool in general, and repeatedly discover that the average electrician doesn't want to learn.

I agree Marc. I think that's a very accurate description of the state of our industry right now.

 

[crossman]

Cross:

I do not think you can make a blanket statement to cover ALL electricians.

Hey brian john, I tried to do my best in that post to not seem like I was making a blanket statement about the quality of electricians. I was only refering to the scores on a test. And those scores do not necessarily coincide with the quality or ability of the electrician. I even saluted those who have had little formal training yet have risen to the top.

 

[brian john]

Cross I understand, unfortunately much like Marc's post mine was more a comment on the nature of the "average" electrician. I do believe schooling may help give the electrician a better lead into being more professional, at least I hope so.