Our Fearless Leader Mike

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don_resqcapt19 said:
He did disconnect the pool equipotential bonding system from any connection to any electrical system. There were days of testing with meters and conductive objects before he ever went into the pool. The testing proved that water in the pool was not conductive enough to flow enough current to create any voltage drop. The verified that every metal part, and even the concrete deck did not have any potentials between them. He really was the bird on the wire when he was in the energized pool...there was nothing that he could contact that was at different voltage than the water.
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And the water was equpotential
 
__dan said:
There can be no assumption the pool is not bonded even if constructed with no metal. The assumption would have to be that there is continuity, some unintended conductive path to the earth, and it is just a question of resistance and current carrying capacity, so in the range of what we are discussing, enough to kill you, the pool is sufficiently connected to Earth.

Same scenario but now your (120) power source is floating ungrounded and you drop any *one* lead into the water, the power source will only reference to ground but not pass any current, in theory, and so in theory is swimmable (note not safe to swim in, safe for the mouse test subject to swim in).
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Thanks for correcting me.
Safe to swim in was poor word choice.
No electrical system is really safe in the true sense of the word.


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ActionDave said:
The whole idea of the grid and the bonding of all the parts is to eliminate voltage gradiants in the water if it becomes energized
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Pete Furrows Reply :
680.26 (A) says ‘The equipotential bonding is installed to “reduce “voltage gradients in the pool area’. The handbook says the equipotential bonding is to “eliminate” the voltage gradient in the pool area.
I just don’t understand how the equipotential bonding system (EBS)can reduce or eliminate voltage gradients in a pool.
I do however see that the EBS reduces or eliminates potential differences in the pool. Maybe I’m not fully understanding voltage gradients.

Voltage gradient
If I throw a #12 wire into the pool straight to a breaker I will create a voltage gradient around that number 12 wire in the water. How would the EBS “reduce “ or “ eliminate “ the voltage gradient? That voltage gradient is going to be there whether the pool has an equipotential bonding system or not. The NEC use of the word “reduce “and the handbook says “eliminate”. I know I’m out of my league but this doesn’t make any sense.


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__dan said:
In Mike's case the voltage gradient existed between the equipotential grid and, or to, the remote earth....

In this case the contiguous bonded assembly, the pool shell and the water, were raised to 120 above the earth, and since the earth is a high resistance conductor, there was significant current flow from the grid through the earth back to the supply, system bonding jumper.

The resistance of the earth was limiting current flow to below the trip point of the main.
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Pete Furrows reply:

If you raise the resistance there will be less current. The breaker will not trip.
I would like to know if they put an amp probe on that number 10 wire in the water.
I’m pretty sure current was traveling through the equipotential bonding system , to the pool pump motor, to the equipment grounding conductor (on the pool motor), and back to the source. In the video they said they had a # 10 wire on a 50 amp breaker.
I wonder how much current was actually flowing on that conductor?


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Peter Furrow said:
Pete Furrows reply:

If you raise the resistance there will be less current. The breaker will not trip.
I would like to know if they put an amp probe on that number 10 wire in the water.
I’m pretty sure current was traveling through the equipotential bonding system , to the pool pump motor, to the equipment grounding conductor (on the pool motor), and back to the source. In the video they said they had a # 10 wire on a 50 amp breaker.
I wonder how much current was actually flowing on that conductor?


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Unlike the normal pool environment, Mike's test specifically floated the equipotential grid by lifting the bond to building EGC. To the extent that there was an unavoidable connection to ground via earth, there would still be a voltage gradient in the pool water from a wire electrode inserted in the water. In this case, however, the potential was introduced in the water via the water electrode of the equipotential grid, There would, for sure, be some significant current in the 120V feed to the equipotential grid because of earth current from some of the bonded objects. But no potential difference from one part of the water to another.
 
GoldDigger said:
Unlike the normal pool environment, Mike's test specifically floated the equipotential grid by lifting the bond to building EGC. To the extent that there was an unavoidable connection to ground via earth, there would still be a voltage gradient in the pool water from a wire electrode inserted in the water. In this case, however, the potential was introduced in the water via the water electrode of the equipotential grid, There would, for sure, be some significant current in the 120V feed to the equipotential grid because of earth current from some of the bonded objects. But no potential difference from one part of the water to another.
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Which is what happens in typical installations when there is rise in volts on the grounded service conductor, and in most cases there is at least a little rise in volts on the grounded service conductor as normal operation gives some voltage drop on the conductor.
 
mikeholt.com

Mike Holt Enterprises - The Leader in Electrical Training.

Mike Holt worked his way up through the electrical trade from apprentice electrician through electrical contractor, to become one of the most recognized experts in the world as it relates to electrical power installations. He was a Journeyman Electrician, Master Electrician, and Electrical...
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Peter Furrow said:
mikeholt.com

Mike Holt Enterprises - The Leader in Electrical Training.

Mike Holt worked his way up through the electrical trade from apprentice electrician through electrical contractor, to become one of the most recognized experts in the world as it relates to electrical power installations. He was a Journeyman Electrician, Master Electrician, and Electrical...
mikeholt.com

On live in 8 minutes


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Last weeks video is being revised.


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mbrooke said:
That should not be an excuse to withhold technical knowledge.
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He is also certainly able to decide what might be a potential liability for him. Mike not so much into the "don't try this at home" kind of things, if he were he'd have a show on Discovery Channel or something like that.
 
kwired said:
He is also certainly able to decide what might be a potential liability for him. Mike not so much into the "don't try this at home" kind of things, if he were he'd have a show on Discovery Channel or something like that.
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Ok I'll ask- what potential liability?
 
mbrooke said:
Ok I'll ask- what potential liability?
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Just because you might have to say "don't try this at home" doesn't mean someone won't try it. It may help lessen your potential liability just by saying it.

One little hole in the equipotential bonding in situation of what the video is supposed to be about and it can be deadly.
 
kwired said:
Just because you might have to say "don't try this at home" doesn't mean someone won't try it. It may help lessen your potential liability just by saying it.

One little hole in the equipotential bonding in situation of what the video is supposed to be about and it can be deadly.
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So someone tries it. How can Mike be liable?
 
mbrooke, when you get a business and feel comfortable doing it then go for it. You really can't have the answer for everybody. Sometimes it sounds like you know better than everyone. I am sure Mike got slack for it and took it down.

Remember in America anybody can get sued for anything. You may win in court but it is the hassle of it all that you want to avoid.
 
kwired said:
He likely isn't, but they certainly can still attempt to sue him as well as the reason I say "potential liability". Once lawsuit is filed there is potential even if it is low.
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You do know that anyone can sue anyone, right? Even with pro-se which does not require an attorney.

Liability, safety, security, investigation, ect have all been used as an excuse to suppress vital information.

I get that Mike was injured motor biking and he doesn't want the insurance company or doctors seeing what they might falsely interpret as a pervasive pattern of thrill seeking or self injurious behavior possibly stemming from some mental health condition (that he does not have, he is actually a sane human in this screwy world- healthy humans experiment). However, at the same time, greater risk comes in not demonstrating esoteric theory in a tangible sense such that those installing pools are finally able to grasp bonding correctly. For example, had Mike not driven a ground rod, energized it and then measured the step potential around the rod I would never have believed let alone understood why an energized ground rod is dangerous. All information should be free, uncensored. That is the only way humanity can progress for the better regardless of what a small irresponsibility minority might do with it when the greater majority knows how to call it out.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
mbrooke, when you get a business and feel comfortable doing it then go for it. You really can't have the answer for everybody. Sometimes it sounds like you know better than everyone. I am sure Mike got slack for it and took it down.

Remember in America anybody can get sued for anything. You may win in court but it is the hassle of it all that you want to avoid.
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If I had a pool with friends with a kill switch and the ability for them to get me out I would try. I'm not kidding. But unfortunately I'm restricted to a table top.

In this case history is on my side- discloser of information consistently saves and progresses.

If you see Mike tell him his was right about doing the pool experiment. Detractors don't care about Mike's well being, rather using that as an excuse to discredit his accomplishments.
 
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