- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I noticed that bucket truck was rented. How much for a truck with bucket rent for up there?
Out with the offensive fluorescent lamps.
- Thread starter iwire
- Start date
- Status
spark master
Senior Member
- Location
- cyberspace
I'm surprised T5's are being removed. Even T8's. Both are still considered efficient, and proven.
- Location
- Massachusetts
And they would not be if not for the fact that the work is heavily subsidized by the power company.
For this plant manager they got all new lighting fixtures, happy employes, lower electric bill all for short money.
spark master
Senior Member
- Location
- cyberspace
And you got $1000 worth of scrap. :thumbsup:
Electric-Light
Senior Member
Exactly. However, it is possible that the utility was heavily influenced by LED installing contractors and industry lobbyists that program developers failed to take way too many things into account.
The conditions of incentives are probably not adequately qualified that this fell through the crack. Incentives should be continuously evolving. This is the kind of thing that needs to be brought up to decision makers for removal review. Each utility or a group of utilities make their own decision in what rebates to provide.
Had they be properly advised that LEDs seriously degrade far beyond T5 and HPT8, they would not be using public purchase charge monies on something so stupid. Generally, LEDs continue to use the same power and they have a lumen loss that's only beat by metal halides and mercury vapor lamps. LEDs are advertised in initial lumens. Generally, they consume the same power while the output and lumens-per-watt continue to go down. If you set up LEDs to meet the illumination requirements at the time of completion, it will fail the illumination requirements after they degrade.
To offset such, low degradation LED system (the most expensive...), active compensation (wattage goes up with time and more expensive), or over illuminate by 20-42% initially depending on the acceptable minimum illumination level. Alternatively, you can avoid having to oversize it and get the manufacturer to provide L90 life and design around the useful life derated to L90. L90 spec treat them as an asset with the same useful life as CFLs (6000-12,000 hours).
There are products like Lithonia nLight N80 active management technology that maintain the same lumen, but it does so by increasing the lamp power to compensate for permanent degradation of LEDs? Are incentive developers versed enough to use the wattage with the compensation maxed out for kW demand evaluation? Initial wattage should NEVER be used for kWh energy or demand for this type of fixtures. Manufacturer should be made to provide average watt over the entire useful life. Say it starts at 100W, crank up to 130W over time to maintain the same lumens, then continue operating at 130W while allowing lumens to drop to cut off point. The integrated average fixture wattage can be around 115W, so you'd use 0.115 x rated life in hours for energy use estimation, but you use 0.13kW/fixture for kW demand burden on utility infrastructure and trim down incentives accordingly. This is because the demand is delayed, but predictable.
Finally, the maintained lifetime lm/W should be compared to low degradation technology such as HPT8 and T5, because this ultimately dictates demand savings in the form of setting how much over sizing is needed to maintain the light level through the system life, or the amount of demand creep the LED degradation compensation mechanism will impose on the utility asset down the road.
Demand reduction accomplished by cutting corners on performance doesn't necessitate the use of extremely expensive products such as LEDs, because, many T5 ballasts support more than one configurations (2 or 4 lamp, 1, 2, 3 or 4 lamps even), delamping accomplishes the same demand reduction with minimal effect on system efficacy in lumens per watt. So, it's a poor stewardship of public purpose charges to grant higher incentive allowances for LED retrofits than for de-lamping.
Here's a good read that speaks the truth about LED retrofits.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/lightproject/conveyor/cvy_r.htm
#11 - Lighting has been a part of many utilities' Demand-Side Management programs. Can you cite particularly successful or unsuccessful efforts? What effect is utility restructuring having on DSM?
"Florida Power and Light has a rebate program for retrofit of offices from T12 to T8 technology. We have only been able to take advantage of this program once unfortunately"
(Robert, an electrical contractor)
"Successful implementation of utility DSM programs has shown that greater quality and quantity of lighting can be achieved. The fault, however, lies in the misapplication of retrofit technology by the Energy Service Companies that receive revenue based upon energy usage reduction, mainly derived from retrofit applications."
(Nicolas, a designer)
- Location
- Massachusetts
You can go on and on and on, we can talk about the reasons for incentives and if there should be any incentives.
But that is still a separate issue from customer satisfaction.
This particular customer got all new lighting fixtures updating the looks of their office space and they were able to do so for short money with the added benefit of lower electric bills.
You are trying to swim upstream.
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So back to outside work, this one was a small lot with five old 400 Watt MH flood lights.
Pulled them down and replaced them with five LED floods, have not heard how they look yet. I am expecting them to be a bit darker but maybe I will be surprised.
Old
New
New up close
Overall, the pole and base will be replaced in the spring.
What is the wattage on those fixtures ?
Last time I took one it was $400 per day, probably a little more now though.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Sorry Bill, I missed this one.
I really do not know, I just ask our purchaser to set it up. I just pick it up and return it. I have it for a week.
Great style boom, it has long sideways reach for a small chassis.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
You gotta respect a guy with a well-substantiated opinion, though.
Not quite the right thread for it, but I like knowing there's a cause I should learn more about.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
I don't think it was the INTENT of the program to subsidize replacing something primarily done for a facelift when it is already efficient simply.
But if I can get to the pump and pull the plug, there's a chance of reducing the money just dumping out into LEDs
- Location
- Massachusetts
Electriclighting 624813 said:
And one more time
This buildings lighting is using less watts that is the intent of the program
In this case the end users also feel it is brighter.
Get over it.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Just found out this morning that next week I start another one. Replacing all the lighting in a large store with LED.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
How much of this install bill is getting picked up by the utility and public welfare?
Come on man! you know the client will pay full price....
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
LED retrofits are not the only place that kind of thing happens. Remember "Cash for clunkers"? Auto dealers, insurance, and finance industries were the biggest winners in that game, as well as the raised tax revenues from higher value taxes on registered vehicles -but the tax revenues from vehicle registrations typically funds local governments and not the feds that were buying the clunkers.
- Location
- Massachusetts
That is not our end of it, we are nothing but hired labor.
None of it is Government money but nice try. :lol:
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
don't say nuffin 'bout the nLight system....
his inner frugulator will spaz all over the place at the cost....
i did a certification on my first nLight system day before yesterday...
the guy doing the configuration on the system was a serious level geek...
and i got an in depth tour of the system, for about three hours.
suffice it to say, there isn't anything you can't do with it, assuming
you can afford it... but it's becoming the de facto workhorse of commercial
lighting systems, and if you are good at it, above a couple thousand a day
to set it up is pretty common. most sparkies just turn numb when they have
to program the stuff... to the point that nLight does their own setup usually.
whatever lighting scripts you put into it are accessible with the load shed
module, allowing the POCO to drop you to 80% or 70%, or what ever
you put into the processor as a strategy... and gradually does it, so tenants
don't notice. well, not much anyway. :lol:
their is a new MC cable that has a data line built into it so you don't have to
run separate cat 5 communications between devices... and the stuff has a
20% overbuild so that LED degradation does not affect light output over the
life of the fixture.
and the real thing driving the switch to LED's is the 120 watt per zone
exclusion from daylight harvesting... saves a ton of money on hardware
and programming time getting the system to comply.
i haven't seen a T5 system installed yet. 100% LED's.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
Not at you guys
I'll save save the ten pages of spazzing for the DOE, utility policy maker pertaining to the spending of fees and such depending on the way it is subsidized.
The 1st spazzing would be what wattage they're using in calculating demand saving subsidies. This is because nLight is a delayed demand increase agreement. It's exactly the same as stock piling a bunch of toasters and telling the utility you promise to only add one every year. If five such toasters are in the storage, you can anticipate that all five will get plugged in and the demand will go up, then go on many years with all five running. Since this is a predictable demand increase, you treat it as if that's the final kW demand. kWh is like the number of miles you'll run around. Demand is like how many cars you intend on placing on the road at rush hours. Utilities are more concerned with demand.
My second WTF is over those grant existence or spending is if there's excessive additional upfront subsidy for the feature since T8s or T5s or in anyway or form allowed higher subsidy payout than T8s or T5s with comparable efficacy on the basis of total $$ subsidized per project with all being equal except the lamp technology. If it's an entirely out of pocket private industry projects, I fully support their right to spend their own money as they please.
Can I tell you what the nLight is? It's everything a 0-10v dimmable light is, but with an hour counter built in to make trim adjustments for permanent performance loss of LEDs. Simply put, if it gets a command for 50% output and LEDs have degraded to 80%, it gets translated to drive at 62.5%.
I need to order some neutral grey 20% tint T8 sleeves. Start both fixtures at 80%. Install sleeves on the lamps (simulate LED degradation) and how I can make it put out the same output by cranking up the dimmable ballast to 100% and confirming the proportional rise in the input power.
Give me a buck so I can give you the opportunity to save a quarter for only 75 cents total. Make it long winded and mind fark them so it doesn't get colored "fraud" by the letter of the law to make them think that they spend 25 cents, they make 75 cents in engaging and exciting ways and you've drawn up the basics of LED Retrofit Energy Service Sales Co. Make sure your .PDF has a foot print that reads "designed for best appearance to be printed on 40% post consumer recycled paper with soy ink for best appearance on mercury free LED backlit tablet"
What, and you think my demonstration luminaire doesn't? It's built with a 1.15BF ballast and a custom made dimmer that lights up a custom green leaf logo whenever you're in between 0.88 and 1.15 and still perform as well as a brand new 0.88BF system even under the toughest conditions. It's 30% overbuilt so you can get the same light output and override the yellowing in the poorest quality lens that rapidly yellows. Built with the same cutting edge core technology used by LED fixture manufacturers to compensate yellowing not visible from the outside. It seems very complicated, but it's very simple. Normally fixtures are built with the gas pedal jammed to the floor. This innovative design uses shims under the pedal and a knowledge of when and how often to remove shims so you don't produce excess performance in the beginning.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I can agree there are cases where people step over dollars to pick up nickels, and if someone is giving a financial incentive to do so - you can expect that at least some will go for it.
Back when there was more incentives to convert T12 technology to T8 technology - I had a few customers that when we crunched the numbers we decided the payback was not going to be in a short enough time to be worth the investment. Some of those were clients that maybe only had 8-10 hours of operation a day on a lot of the lamps in question - but a client that maybe ran them at/near 24/7 seen a fairly quick payback. Then there were a few that just were really in need of a new look. Had a small storefront that had 1960's 8 foot T12's on pendant rods still being used. They had at some point installed a suspended ceiling - so all we did was throw in some T8 toffers and they not only got some energy savings (didn't crunch the numbers too hard on that one) but got a much needed newer look, plus a rebate from POCO that helped pay for some of it.
Back when there was more incentives to convert T12 technology to T8 technology - I had a few customers that when we crunched the numbers we decided the payback was not going to be in a short enough time to be worth the investment. Some of those were clients that maybe only had 8-10 hours of operation a day on a lot of the lamps in question - but a client that maybe ran them at/near 24/7 seen a fairly quick payback. Then there were a few that just were really in need of a new look. Had a small storefront that had 1960's 8 foot T12's on pendant rods still being used. They had at some point installed a suspended ceiling - so all we did was throw in some T8 toffers and they not only got some energy savings (didn't crunch the numbers too hard on that one) but got a much needed newer look, plus a rebate from POCO that helped pay for some of it.
- Status