Outbuilding vs outdoor sub panel

[spark master]

If I wire an outbuilding. Detached garage, or barn, etc. I need a main breaker in the sub panel.
If I install an outdoor sub panel, like a pool equipment panel. No main breaker required.

Why is there a difference ???

 

[infinity]

One will provide a single disconnecting means for a building (you're allowed up to 6) but where does it say that the panel mounted alone wouldn't require a main? I believe the answer comes down to how you interpret the definition of a structure.

 

[spark master]

A pool panel... it has the timer built in. Combination panel and timer in a sub panel. There is no main. And it has 16 breakers in it. Actually 8 that can be doubled up. Why doesn't this setup require a MB?

 

[infinity]

Here's the applicable code sections, each building or structure requires a disconnecting means up to a maximum of 6 disconnecting means. So now you have to define what is the panel mounted to, it's not a building but is it a structure? If it is a structure then 225.33 applies. IMO the Article 100 definition isn't much help.

Structure. That which is built or constructed, other than equipment.

225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by 225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches
or six circuit breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or
switchgear. There shall be no more than six disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.

Part II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)
225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a
service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A)
through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

 

[spark master]

It's mounted on a 4x4 post. next to multiple pool pumps, heater, pool lighting, utility outlet, other lighting for the yard. etc. Is that a structure, or a pool panel???

 

[jim dungar]

It's mounted on a 4x4 post. next to multiple pool pumps, heater, pool lighting, utility outlet, other lighting for the yard. etc. Is that a structure, or a pool panel???

Is the 4x4 post supplied by the feeder, or is it just a support structure? What is the definition of supplied?

IMHO, you would let the buildings codes classify an item as a building, structure, equipment, or something else. Once the classification is made, then you go to the NEC definition to see which sections apply.

 

[spark master]

It's an underground feeder from the house. that runs up the 4x4 post.
It's basically a pool panel... for mostly pool equipment..

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO, the panel should require a main. The panel is feeding many different pieces of equipment but that would be an authority having jurisdiction call. I know when we wired one we added a main breaker box to feed the pool panel.

Structure. That which is built or constructed, other than equipment. (CMP-1)

 

[spark master]

So if the panel floated in mid air, MLO would be ok
Sinking a post into the ground is not really building or constructing in my book. That would require 2 pieces of lumber to build

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So if the panel floated in mid air, MLO would be ok
Sinking a post into the ground is not really building or constructing in my book. That would require 2 pieces of lumber to build

Again that will be an authority having jurisdiction call, IMO

 

[spark master]

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These things still exist, although most newer variable speed pool pumps have built in electronics for scheduling....

 

[infinity]

It's mounted on a 4x4 post. next to multiple pool pumps, heater, pool lighting, utility outlet, other lighting for the yard. etc. Is that a structure, or a pool panel???

IMO a single 4X4 post is not a structure it's a support same would apply to a piece of strut in the ground. It's been argued here before.

 

[spark master]

I'm going with infinity. The sole purpose of a 4x4 or kindoff stuck in the ground is to support electrical equipment. It really serves no other purpose. Certainly not a structure or building.

How many times have we built massive Kindoff frames, just to mount switch gear... Even if I mount a rain guard on top, it's sole purpose is to mount electrical gear.. Thanks for the clarity.

 

[infinity]

Just keep in mind that this is completely subjective given that the NEC definition is so weak and ambiguous. At what point does it stop being a support and start being a structure?

This to me is a support but if one calls it a structure then it becomes a violation having two branch circuits run to a single structure. Because of that violation the structure interpretation becomes silly.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The 2020 is not calling that a structure because it is 2 feeders feeding 2 pieces of equipment. I guess it is fair to say that a pool panel would be a similar situation.

The change came because people where saying you could run an alarm circuit and a power circuit to a lift pump in the yard. I think they were trying to make it clear that in that case it is okay. I am not sure what they would say about a panel....

 

[LarryFine]

This to me is a support but if one calls it a structure then it becomes a violation having two branch circuits run to a single structure. Because of that violation the structure interpretation becomes silly.

Or, another way to say it: "It can't be a structure because it has two circuits supplying it.

 

[McLintock]

Another question along the same lines, if you have a disconnect at a pedestal outside, say 100’ from the house, can you install just a main lug panel in the house? Do you NEED and main in the house itself?


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[jhachris]

Another question along the same lines, if you have a disconnect at a pedestal outside, say 100’ from the house, can you install just a main lug panel in the house? Do you NEED and main in the house itself?


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

IMO yes you need a main in the house itself. Doesn't matter that you have a disconnect before it - it's a house.

 

[infinity]

Another question along the same lines, if you have a disconnect at a pedestal outside, say 100’ from the house, can you install just a main lug panel in the house? Do you NEED and main in the house itself?

You need a disconnecting means at the separate structure, a main CB in the panel is the easiest way to do it but the disconnecting means is not required to be a CB in the panel. It could be a separate unfused disconnect switch.

 

[McLintock]

IMO yes you need a main in the house itself. Doesn't matter that you have a disconnect before it - it's a house.

You have a Article number for that?


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”