Outdoor Hot Tub 680.26(B)(7) bond metal rain gutters?

[jwelectric]

The one thing I love most about this discussion forum is the way a lot of folks will debate the verbiage of the code stating, ?show me text? when they need to but at other times make the statement that the verbiage as it is written is not what is there.

This is one such case but I think those who are looking for the verbiage is simply overlooking what is written.

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
Exception No. 1: Those separated from the pool by a permanent barrier shall not be required to be bonded.
Exception No. 2: Those greater than 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally of the inside walls of the pool shall not be required to be bonded.
Exception No. 3: Those greater than 3.7 m (12 ft) measured vertically above the maximum water level of the pool, or as measured vertically above any observation stands, towers, or platforms, or any diving structures, shall not be required to be bonded.


Here in this section there are many different items that are being addressed. As outlined in the header it is addressing metal wiring methods as well as equipment. In the text is mentions metal sheathed cable and it also mentions raceways. Now most of us are smart enough to know there is no need to bond a nonmetallic raceway so they must be talking about metallic raceways.

In the title it also mentions ?and equipment? which would lead most to think of something other than electrical wiring methods. Several times the code mentions metal piping and 250.104 is one of great debate. This metal piping as outlined here could be metal water piping, metal gas piping or any other metal piping one could think of.

All fixed metal parts has nothing stated that would lead me to believe that these fix metal parts have anything to do with the electrical system supplying the pool the verbiage does lead some to believe that any fixed metal fitting such as a metal door mounted in a wooded frame that could be bonded through the hinge.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Or a metal gutter attached to a wood facia board.

I am not saying either could not become live. We can easily bond that gutter. Bonding a door in steel frame is also easy but with wood frame it will not be easy.
What i am puzzled over is if i been reading nec wrong all these years. So i am not picking sides yet.

 

[stjohnbarleycorn]

what are they saying here?

Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.

fixed metal parts of the cables and raceways, piping or all metal parts that are in the 5'?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What i am puzzled over is if i been reading nec wrong all these years. So i am not picking sides yet.

It is obvious that this article needs work or, at least, clarification. The fact that MH graphic changed after the discussion we had on this issue makes me wonder whether he realized windows were not what the code was talking about.

I called our NC state inspector and I was surprised that he was on my side on this issue. I even mentioned the fence-- he also thought it was probably a good idea to bond it but in his opinion was not req. by the NEC.

 

[M. D.]

Mike Whitt , you lost me completely ,..I'm not sure what you said in that post but I'm sure a hinge isn't listed for the purpose of bonding

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mike Whitt , you lost me completely ,..I'm not sure what you said in that post but I'm sure a hinge isn't listed for the purpose of bonding

I am glad I wasn't the only one. I was trying to figure what side of the fence he was on.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

17-184 Log #1708 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.26(B)(7))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: David Barnhart, City of Portland
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Fixed Metal Parts, Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal sheathed cables
and raceways, metal piping and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
Substantiation: The heading for 680.26(B)(7) leads one to believe that it only
covers installations that are part of ?Wiring Methods and Equipment?. This
makes it difficult to include metal fences, awnings, door frames, etc. as
referenced in the 2008 NEC Handbook.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 680.26(B)(7) to read as follows:
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including, but
not limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal
awnings, metal fences, and metal door and window frames.
Exceptions to be retained.
Panel Statement: CMP-17 edits the submitter?s text to ensure that all fixed
metal parts (e.g., electrical equipment, fences, lamp posts) are included.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11


17-91 Log #2321 NEC-P17 Final Action: Reject
(680.26(B)(7))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mike Holt, Mike Holt Enterprises
Comment on Proposal No: 17-184
Recommendation: Revise the proposed text as follows:
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including but not
limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal awnings,
and metal fences, and metal door and window frames.
Exceptions remain unchanged.
Substantiation: Bonding a window frame that is completely isolated from
anything conductive just doesn?t make sense. The odds are very, very low that
someone swimming in an electrified pool is going to touch a metal window
frame. The same can be said for awnings and door frames.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: Bonding of these metal parts is not just because they can
become energized but is to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

 

[M. D.]

so in 2011 looks like I'll be bonding nails...

 

[K8MHZ]

IMO that applies only to Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.

A downspout is not electrical.

Neither is a fence.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess Mike will have to bring back the old graphic. At least it is pretty clear now, but what a nightmare. My point on this issue was the wording wasn't clear. Now that the wording is changing then I'd say we have clarity. I still cannot see why a window or isolated metal door needs to be bonded.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike Whitt , you lost me completely ,..I'm not sure what you said in that post but I'm sure a hinge isn't listed for the purpose of bonding

I am glad I wasn't the only one. I was trying to figure what side of the fence he was on.

I am on neither side except the verbiage of the code. In the section in question there four different items listed. These are as follows;
Metal-sheathed cables,
raceways,
metal piping,
all fixed metal parts

Which kind of raceways do we need to bond? Would it be the metal piping kind?
So explain why the code making panel would say bond all metal pipe raceways and all metal pipe in the same sentence.
Could it be that in this one section the code is giving permission to use black steel or copper pipe as a means of making an electrical installation.
As has been asked throughout this thread, ?show where the code says that something other than electrical equipment is mentioned? and I was just trying to show this. It is right there on page 567.

 

[tortuga]

Equipment
A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of or in connection with, an electrical installation.

++ Agreed, there is much debate going on right now about correct listed lugs for bonding the aluminum frames of solar modules, that could be applied to gutters. You would need a product like this to comply with 110.14.
I had an inspector bring it up once when I had a gutter within 5 feet he did not require it and I could not tell if he was joking. I assumed he was until now.

 

[wiredoc]

metal within 5'-12' area

metal within 5'-12' area

It's my understanding that any metal,measured 5' horizontally and 12' vertically from the inside edge or highest water level must be bonded.These measurements are used to prevent anyone inside the water from touching unbonded metal.The 12' comes in when you're using a telescopic brush/skimmer,commonly made of metal.

 

[tortuga]

What I see being discussed here is either how people got more than the NEC article 100 definition of "equipment", or how people expand the scope of a paragraph beyond its heading.

Do we all agree that in the NFPA style manual a heading defines what is covered in a paragraph? Like if the heading was 600 volts and above it would not apply to a lower voltage?

This is one such case but I think those who are looking for the verbiage is simply overlooking what is written.
(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.

The first sentence is the heading. The heading says "equipment" and ends there. Equipment is defined in art 100 as related to the electrical installation and nothing else. So everything after the heading in that paragraph only applies to "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment".

It seems like people here are either saying gutters are "equipment" or the rest of the paragraph applies to more than the heading?

Would the CMP be familiar with the NEC definition of equipment and the NFPA style manual?
I think so but I don't know. The CMP would use a different word to include more than equipment.
EDIT: They define three more types of equipment in 680.2 but they do not redefine "equipment".

Equipment, Fixed. Equipment that is fastened or otherwise
secured at a specific location.
Equipment, Portable. Equipment that is actually moved
or can easily be moved from one place to another in normal
use.
Equipment, Stationary. Equipment that is not easily
moved from one place to another in normal use.

I would like to see this post revived with a photo next time someone bonds a gutter.

I did google and find a UL listed gutter clamp on this lightning protection website:
http://www.kuefler-lightning.com/series500-cablesplicers.htm

 

[M. D.]

In the section in question there four different items listed. These are as follows;[/FONT]
Metal-sheathed cables,
raceways,
metal piping,
all fixed metal parts]

that are related to metal wiring methods and equipment

 

[M. D.]

If what Don posted comes to pass I'd have to ask if this CMP has any concept of what they will have done ..

(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including, but
not limited to......

will have us bonding doorbell buttons ,. letter slots bird feeders and on and on and on .. 680 is one of the worst written sections in the book. The way the above is worded ,..nails and deck screws will now require bonding

 

[elohr46]

Neither is a fence.

A metal fence is connected to earth and must be bonded if within 5' of the inside wall of pool.

 

[jwelectric]

. In the section in question there four different items listed. These are as follows;

Metal-sheathed cables,
raceways,
metal piping,
all fixed metal parts

that are related to metal wiring methods and equipment

Could you explain the difference between the first three and give examples, please.

This is one such case but I think those who are looking for the verbiage is simply overlooking what is written.

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment.

The first sentence is the heading. The heading says "equipment" and ends there. Equipment is defined in art 100 as related to the electrical installation and nothing else. So everything after the heading in that paragraph only applies to "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment".

Part of this you fixed when you edited to add the definitions given in 680.2 which modify that given in 100. But if one wanted to include that then the 100 definition starts out as ?A general term?
What would you call a kindorf that was used to hold in place air pipe, gas pipe, water pipe, steam pipe and RMC?

It seems like people here are either saying gutters are "equipment" or the rest of the paragraph applies to more than the heading?

Would the CMP be familiar with the NEC definition of equipment and the NFPA style manual?

I would think that the CMP has a better grip on things than any of us and that there is no separation in the of the word ?equipment? and yes without a doubt the gutter would not be much good if it were not for the added equipment of a downspout.

 

[tortuga]

All of article 680 uses the word equipment wrong

All of article 680 uses the word equipment wrong

So somehow 680 does not use the NEC definition "equipment" but rather a standard definition and when they use the term "electrical equipment" they mean the NEC definition of "equipment"?
Here is my logic:
Article 680.2 builds on the definition of equipment 3 times, and the entire article uses the word "electrical equipment" redundantly for example see heading 680.26(B)(6).
Although 680.4 heading uses the word "equipment" alone, then the first sentence uses the term "electrical equipment". Very strange.
The panel even used the redundant term "electrical equipment" in the statement below:

17-184 Log #1708 NEC-P17 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(680.26(B)(7))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: David Barnhart, City of Portland
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
Fixed Metal Parts, Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal sheathed cables
and raceways, metal piping and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
Substantiation: The heading for 680.26(B)(7) leads one to believe that it only
covers installations that are part of Wiring Methods and Equipment. This
makes it difficult to include metal fences, awnings, door frames, etc. as
referenced in the 2008 NEC Handbook.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise 680.26(B)(7) to read as follows:
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including, but
not limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal
awnings, metal fences, and metal door and window frames.
Exceptions to be retained.
Panel Statement: CMP-17 edits the submitter?s text to ensure that all fixed
metal parts (e.g., electrical equipment, fences, lamp posts) are included.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

That is like saying "electrical electrical equipment".
Why did the CMP "Accept in Principle" and not "accept"? I would have worded the substantiation something like "The first sentence of the listed Item 7 is a heading. A heading limits the scope of a paragraph and thus its enforceability. The rest of the paragraph applies only to the scope of the heading "metal wiring methods" and "equipment" as defined in article 100. Omitting all other metal parts, If the CMP intends for other metal parts to be bonded it needs to be in a heading and clearly laid out what metal parts including sizes and types".
http://thesaurus.com/browse/equipment

17-91 Log #2321 NEC-P17 Final Action: Reject
(680.26(B)(7))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mike Holt, Mike Holt Enterprises
Comment on Proposal No: 17-184
Recommendation: Revise the proposed text as follows:
(7) Fixed Metal Parts. All fixed metal parts shall be bonded, including but not
limited to, metal sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, metal awnings,
and metal fences, and metal door and window frames.
Exceptions remain unchanged.
Substantiation: Bonding a window frame that is completely isolated from
anything conductive just doesn't make sense. The odds are very, very low that
someone swimming in an electrified pool is going to touch a metal window
frame. The same can be said for awnings and door frames.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: Bonding of these metal parts is not just because they can
become energized but is to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11

OK this proposal was rejected it includes "window frames"? Why did the substantiation refer to "Bonding a window frame that is completely isolated from anything conductive just doesn't make sense"?
Is the substantiation not provided by the submitter Mike Holt?
Or was that substantiation from the panel saying they are not concerned with energized window frames but voltage gradients on (electrical) equipment?
This one makes no sense.

 

[M. D.]

" Could you explain the difference between the first three and give examples, please."

No.....