Outdoor panel for pool

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nickelec

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Hey all im doing an outdoor sub panel 60 amp single phase for pool equipment and outdoor lighting etc. My question is would it be better to have a gfci main breaker feeding that sub rather then individual gfci breakers at the out door panel for each individual circuit

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nickelec said:
Hey all im doing an outdoor sub panel 60 amp single phase for pool equipment and outdoor lighting etc. My question is would it be better to have a gfci main breaker feeding that sub rather then individual gfci breakers at the out door panel for each individual circuit

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Click to expand...

No, at least with individual GFI breakers you would know what circuit has a problem.
GFI main would trip for any trouble in any circuit.
 
I was leaning towards individual but just wanted some clarity thanks

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non gfi in main, gfi ocpd's in sub. make sure EGC and N remain seperated in the sub.
 
Hmm. Looking these responses.
We have been using a 60 amp GFCI spa panel adjacent to our pool control/computer sub-panel outside by the pool equipment.
We bring our main feed from the residence to power up the GFCI. It then feeds our sub-panel to control all the pool equipment.

We do not put a GFCI in the main in the house. If it trips and no one is home to let us in to re-set, we're screwed.

We have not had any real nuisance trip problems killing everything. I understand the responses stating problem devices can be narrowed down with individual branch circuit GFCI's. I agree on that point.

2 pole 20 GFCI's become an expensive venture especially when we have numerous pumps that require it. Even single poles are not cheap.
 
If you use a feeder gfci then how do you cover this. Technically it is not allowed IMO.

680.23(A)(3) GFCI Protection, Relamping. A ground-fault circuitinterrupter shall be installed in the branch circuit supplying
luminaires operating at more than the low voltage contact
limit such that there is no shock hazard during relamping.
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Dennis Alwon said:
If you use a feeder gfci then how do you cover this. Technically it is not allowed IMO.
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luminaries. a 60A sub will typically just be a single dual pole ocpd for pump or main power to a "item".

there are subs that are multi ocpd slot, like what i have is a 4slot, 120 240 120, all gfi'd in the sub, main is just a std ocpd.
 
FionaZuppa said:
luminaries. a 60A sub will typically just be a single dual pole ocpd for pump or main power to a "item".

there are subs that are multi ocpd slot, like what i have is a 4slot, 120 240 120, all gfi'd in the sub, main is just a std ocpd.
Click to expand...

What are you saying?
 
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iwire said:
What are you saying?
Click to expand...

the sub as described by OP sounds like it has multiple bc's. the ocpd's there that provide the bc for luminaries should have gfi, but other ocpd's may not need be gfi. i probably misread OP's 1st post, the "single phase" may have thrown me ;), its all single phase :happyyes:

a sub that has main breaker with slots for bc's is a pita because that main serves as the disco, which means you need to leave it unlocked. i use a 2-4 slot spa panel (no main) with a lever style dual pole disco box, this way i can keep lockout on ocpd box yet the disco is still easily accessible (disco as required by 680).

Mystic Pools said:
If it trips and no one is home to let us in to re-set, we're screwed.
Click to expand...
let you in ?? in some locales the main panel is outside and they leave the panel door unlocked :rant:
 
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Mystic Pools said:
Hmm. Looking these responses.
We have been using a 60 amp GFCI spa panel adjacent to our pool control/computer sub-panel ...

2 pole 20 GFCI's become an expensive venture especially when we have numerous pumps that require it. Even single poles are not cheap.
Click to expand...

At the pool sub-panel for the branch circuits, ever try putting more than one pump on a double pole gfi breaker? Don't up the wire size for the whip, but maybe three pumps on a gfi double pole thirty? Two pumps on a 20?
 
Ok. I am attaching a photo of our typical set up on swimming pool for clarification. Simple pool only set up. Filter pump, auto cleaner pump,24v heater(gas fired) and LED 12v lights via transformer.

The GFCI panel to the right, is has a 60 GFCI breaker. The panel is rated for 125 amps. It's made by GE.

The large sub-panel is a Jandy 66114-APL 100 amp capacity panel. It contains individual breakers for each device to be powered, pool pumps, LED lights (12V) to transformer, computer power, receptacle, heater power.

This panel board is set outside adjacent to the pool equipment. (Yes, set within code limits from the pool)

The power supply/feed from the main breaker in the house (sometimes emanates from garage or the basement or at slab grade indoors) feeds power to the GFCI. It then feeds the Jandy panel to supply power to the individual devices. Now, all devices are GFCI protected.

Inspectors have never failed for this set up. In fact they thought it was a good idea. We have used this set since the code went into effect.

Some electricians have put the GFCI breaker in the main panel in the house, and then feed the pool equipment. If it trips, the panel must be accessible, someone must be home to allow us to re-set.

The one thing we may change, is to have the receptacle get power from GE GFCI box as it has a few spots for additional breakers. It would have it's own GFCI receptacle as it's not protected by the internal GFCI.
We have had some nuisance tripping a few times and I think it's related to the receptacle being used by the homeowner (extension cord left plugged in during rain storm, getting wet somehow) which causes the tripping and kills the entire panel.

When a multitude of devices is required, and the 60 amp GFCI box is not capable, then we would have to got to individual GFCI's or to another GFCI box.

I would appreciate any comments on this set-up.
 

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I like it. It's smart and shipshape.

Your post mentioned expense, though. I have some ideas that an industrial inspector wouldn't blink at, but a fellow that just inspected residential may not understand.

First, let's confirm we're on the same page. The computer, transformer and heater do not need GFCI protection. The receptacle is only required if there is no other receptacle within twenty feet of the water's edge or the equipment includes a heat pump/compressor style unit.

Two very nit-pickey points. That PVC expansion fitting is not required there. It looks like that is a seperate structure from the house. A seperate structure requires a grounding electrode system. Just don't tell the inspector. For kicks and giggles you can extend the bond to the panel(using GEC rules). All that rebar makes a wonderful grounding electrode. 680 states you don't have to bring the bond to the panel, but it doesn't say you can't.

If the panel is mounted on the house structure then a second electrode system is not allowed.
 
I can buy two single pole GFCI breakers cheaper than one 2-pole GFCI. I never use a GFCI to protect the whole subpanel. Too many things to cause nuisance tripping. If you have multiple things with small leakage they can add up enough to trip a GFCI. Whereas each item alone may have less than 5-5ma leak that wouldn't trip a GFCI on their own.
 
Mystic Pools said:
Ok. I am attaching a photo of our typical set up on swimming pool for clarification. Simple pool only set up. Filter pump, auto cleaner pump,24v heater(gas fired) and LED 12v lights via transformer.

The GFCI panel to the right, is has a 60 GFCI breaker. The panel is rated for 125 amps. It's made by GE.

The large sub-panel is a Jandy 66114-APL 100 amp capacity panel. It contains individual breakers for each device to be powered, pool pumps, LED lights (12V) to transformer, computer power, receptacle, heater power.

This panel board is set outside adjacent to the pool equipment. (Yes, set within code limits from the pool)

The power supply/feed from the main breaker in the house (sometimes emanates from garage or the basement or at slab grade indoors) feeds power to the GFCI. It then feeds the Jandy panel to supply power to the individual devices. Now, all devices are GFCI protected.

Inspectors have never failed for this set up. In fact they thought it was a good idea. We have used this set since the code went into effect.

Some electricians have put the GFCI breaker in the main panel in the house, and then feed the pool equipment. If it trips, the panel must be accessible, someone must be home to allow us to re-set.

The one thing we may change, is to have the receptacle get power from GE GFCI box as it has a few spots for additional breakers. It would have it's own GFCI receptacle as it's not protected by the internal GFCI.
We have had some nuisance tripping a few times and I think it's related to the receptacle being used by the homeowner (extension cord left plugged in during rain storm, getting wet somehow) which causes the tripping and kills the entire panel.

When a multitude of devices is required, and the 60 amp GFCI box is not capable, then we would have to got to individual GFCI's or to another GFCI box.

I would appreciate any comments on this set-up.
Click to expand...

First, if it works and it's code-compliant, and the customer is happy, then it's good in my book.

Do you have more pictures that show all of the panels and equipment, and the wiring/conduit from the Jandy box to the equipment?

Some constructive criticism:

The expansion joint maybe isnt needed, and even if it were that beige box that's out of frame looks like it might obstruct the joint (equipment crowded). The 2 hole strap on the scrap of wood... I know you needed it but it looks like a DIY fix. The LFNMC could be a bit longer to have nice, straight verticals and better U-bends. The control/LV cables in the bottom right could use some dressing/cable mgmt. The bored hole for the LFNMC center bottom under the Jandy panel; if you bored it a bit lower and at a downward angle, that conduit would lay flatter/closer to the wood. The PVC conduit straps and bell box for the receptacle look like they have drywall (black head) screws in them, save for the right side screw of the 2 hole strap on the x-joint looks like an exterior/deck screw. Is the 20A receptacle on a 20A breaker with #12?

imho, spending just a few more minutes on the things Ive mentioned would turn a good install into a showcase or model install, one that you could post pictures of to your website/sales brochures. Might not even take more time than this install did. :thumbsup:
 
Jeez, these guys have OCD worse than me!:eek:hmy: Seriously Mystic, your work is way better than the monkeys and hacks we have here in Florida. And, well, I'm gonna use some of what they said, myself.
Questions:
What are those black ?cables? dropping down from the high voltage side of the Aqualink?
Why don't you like the receptacle knockout on the lower right side of the Aqualink box?
 
There's no way I would use a master GFCI breaker in this manner. Not a chance in the world. We always use individual GFCI breakers for each piece of equipment. You setup is a very bad design.
 
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