Outdoor receptacle box

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kwired said:
You have pleaded your case several times - no one that has responded has bought into the idea that a fitting becomes part of the raceway even a cemented on PVC fitting.

Fittings become a necessary component of raceway systems but are not raceways themselves, and in the case of RMC, and IMC a termination fitting is not necessarily required you can simply thread the raceway itself to provide a means of termination.

Is a hub a fitting? Yes in the case of a myers hub. Is the hubs of a one piece device box a fitting? No - if anything the entire box is the fitting and not just the threaded opening.
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Kwired, I'll respond to this post simply because you have address the debated issues.

Even if I redact my statement ref. a fitting become part of a raceway, a fitting is allow in the said section, you even agree with that.

Now, with a fitting, PVC can be treaded wenchtight, no one has disagree with that and that is another point no one has responded to.

Most importantly, there has been a blanket statement that PVC cannot support a box and again no one has put forth a section to support that statement. They only spin off and argue over a fitting but that IMO is a weak argument for such a blanket statement.
 
iwire said:
And it seems all of us disagree with your opinion. (That doesn't make anybody right & is off topic)

Code words aside it seems odd to me that you think the NEC would allow a box to be supported by PVC conduit. (Again, what seems odd to you is again off topic)


Here is the 2008 NEC section in discussion




Please note it specifies conduits, it does not mention fittings.

A Conduit is one thing a fitting is another, that is a fact you have done nothing to prove otherwise with anymore than your personal opinion.

Here is the NEC definition of fitting



Here is the UL General directory about fittings.


Here is the section regarding PVC conduit



As you can see UL does not consider a fitting 'conduit' or a 'raceway'. It simply does not.

And regardless of how many times you say a fitting becomes a raceway it does not. You are simply wrong in that view.

You have provided nothing but your own opinion about that while we have provided UL and NEC information disputing that.

It is now up to you to coincide or find a source to show a fitting becomes a conduit.
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Glad to read that PVC is considered conduit. I'll redact that statement ref. it becoming a conduit. Now you answer the question I posed to you in the previous post: Once again a hub is listed in 314.23(F) as compliant. Is it a fitting?
 
Michael15956 said:
Most importantly, there has been a blanket statement that PVC cannot support a box and again no one has put forth a section to support that statement. They only spin off and argue over a fitting but that IMO is a weak argument for such a blanket statement.
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Michael you are not reading the info as stated. There has been many supportive statements why PVC cannot be used. PVC must be threaded into the hub or threads on the box. Now how do you propose to do that without a connector. Remember the conduit must be wrench tight into the threads. That means PVC must have threads
 
Michael15956 said:
Now, with a fitting, PVC can be treaded wenchtight, no one has disagree with that
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Actually I think all of us disagree with that.

PVC conduit cannot be threaded wrench tight. PVC conduit does not have threads.

A PVC fitting has threads but the code section says nothing about fittings.
 
Michael15956 said:
Now you answer the question I posed to you in the previous post: Once again a hub is listed in 314.23(F) as compliant. Is it a fitting?
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Yes a hub is a fitting and it is specifically listed as not all fittings are allowed.

And more to the point it has to be specifically listed for support

Here are the code words

It shall have threaded entries or have hubs identified for the purpose.
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Why are hubs specifically listed? Because if they were not we could not use them for support as they are not conduit they are fittings.


Now I have done my best to answer a number of your questions, now can you answer mine where I asked you to find some source to back up your claim a fitting becomes conduit?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Michael you are not reading the info as stated. There has been many supportive statements why PVC cannot be used. PVC must be threaded into the hub or threads on the box. Now how do you propose to do that without a connector. Remember the conduit must be wrench tight into the threads. That means PVC must have threads
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Thanks Dennis for staying on topic and being kind when someone disagrees. Mark of a real professional!!

Here is one of my points, there is no verb-age in the said section that prohibits using a connector/fitting to make a wrenchtight connection. In fact there is verb-age in the section that allows a fitting/connector to make a wrenchtight connection.

Example: a 4 Square box needs to be supported by conduit. It can be done compliantly with an "identified Hub" and conduit as long as it is treaded wrenchtight. The hub is a connector/fitting, it has to be mechanically connected. So is a male PVC connector/fitting, it also has to be connected. IMO this section does not prohibit using fitting/connectors to accomplish a wrenchtight connection.
 
iwire said:
Yes a hub is a fitting and it is specifically listed as not all fittings are allowed.

And more to the point it has to be specifically listed for support

Here are the code words



Why are hubs specifically listed? Because if they were not we could not use them for support as they are not conduit they are fittings.


Now I have done my best to answer a number of your questions, now can you answer mine where I asked you to find some source to back up your claim a fitting becomes conduit?
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Well thanks Bob for your kind answer! Also, in response to your question listed above, I have redacted my claim ref. a fitting becoming a conduit. Check my previous reply to your post.

Here is my position, I got involved in this tread because I wanted to learn some finer points of the NEC. It's got a bit serious and I really didn't want it to. But, what I think is important in the section are the wenchtight connections. I agree with you that hubs are specifically listed in the section. The hubs would be necessary if a 4 square box needed supported by conduit. But in the OP picture there are treaded entries that do not need a hub and the section does not prohibit using a PVC connector to accomplish a WT connection. That is all I saying. If it listed only a "identified Hub of so & so material" I would agree with it.

Here is something I just thought of right now, Bob. Is a PVC Male connector listed as a treaded hub or fitting or whatever?
 
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Michael15956 said:
Sorry Bill, I have only been discussing 314.23(F).

There has been a blanket statement on this tread that "PVC is not allow to support a box." This statement was based on Section 352.10(H). Once again I disagree with the statement.

Now, where in the code can you support your statement you just wrote: "The code for PVC doesn't allow it to support luminaries, and other equipment (boxes w/devices)?

Now for your last line: "I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand!" I can make the same statement about you, but I won't because that would be a personal attack. I though that personal attacks were not allow on this site. Keep it professional Bill.
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I made no personal attack on you. I simply made a statement that I didn't know why this was so hard for you to understand. I wasn't mad or even thought of attacking you. Sorry if you took it that way.
With the codes sections cited and several people showing you what was written and why, I couldn't understand you not seeing this.
 
Michael15956 said:
Thanks Dennis for staying on topic and being kind when someone disagrees. Mark of a real professional!!

Here is one of my points, there is no verb-age in the said section that prohibits using a connector/fitting to make a wrenchtight connection. In fact there is verb-age in the section that allows a fitting/connector to make a wrenchtight connection.

Example: a 4 Square box needs to be supported by conduit. It can be done compliantly with an "identified Hub" and conduit as long as it is treaded wrenchtight. The hub is a connector/fitting, it has to be mechanically connected. So is a male PVC connector/fitting, it also has to be connected. IMO this section does not prohibit using fitting/connectors to accomplish a wrenchtight connection.
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Michael15956 said:
Well thanks Bob for your kind answer! Also, in response to your question listed above, I have redacted my claim ref. a fitting becoming a conduit. Check my previous reply to your post.

Here is my position, I got involved in this tread because I wanted to learn some finer points of the NEC. It's got a bit serious and I really didn't want it to. But, what I think is important in the section are the wenchtight connections. I agree with you that hubs are specifically listed in the section. The hubs would be necessary if a 4 square box needed supported by conduit. But in the OP picture there are treaded entries that do not need a hub and the section does not prohibit using a PVC connector to accomplish a WT connection. That is all I saying. If it listed only a "identified Hub of so & so material" I would agree with it.

Here is something I just thought of right now, Bob. Is a PVC Male connector listed as a treaded hub or fitting or whatever?
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The PVC male adapter is a listed fitting just like the hub. I have not verified it but would guess it is not listed to support enclosures and is listed just to terminate the raceway.
 
iwire said:
PVC conduit cannot be threaded wrench tight. PVC conduit does not have threads.
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I would never claim PVC can't be threaded - done it before, is not all that easy - it will break off in the threader pretty easily. I will agree that NEC doesn't recognize threading of PVC as an acceptable practice.

sorry forgot the:)
 
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352.12(B) says that the PCV can only be used to support things when used per the rule in 352.10(H). Boxes are not found in the permitted uses.

352.12 Uses Not Permitted. PVC conduit shall not be used under the conditions specified in 352.12(A) through (E).
...
(B) Support of Luminaires. For the support of luminaires or other equipment not described in 352.10(H).
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352.10 Uses Permitted. The use of PVC conduit shall be permitted in accordance with 352.10(A) through (H).
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(H) Support of Conduit Bodies. PVC conduit shall be permitted to support nonmetallic conduit bodies not larger than the largest trade size of an entering raceway. These conduit bodies shall not support luminaires or other equipment and shall not contain devices other than splicing devices as permitted by 110.14(B) and 314.16(C)(2).
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Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.
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I understand where Michael is coming from. With a connector glued on to the conduit and then threaded in it would seem like a threaded conduit. The problem I have is that if that were the case then emt sealtight and every other conduit would be allowed and there would be no reason for this section. It could be clearer if they stated the acceptable conduits. I see it as IMC, RMC, Pvc coated RMC or some other threaded conduits that I don't know about.

BTW, I think Don posted the pertinent articles.
 
I just don?t understand why multiconductor UF cable and a roll of duct tape wouldn?t work. :angel:

As to the support all one needs is to spend a day in the court room to find out how to get support. Everyday someone goes to jail for not doing their part in supporting. :happysad:

Now if you don?t think this post is funny then you can do what Larry said and just get out of here or he will tell his sister holy moley :slaphead:
 
jwelectric said:
I just don?t understand why multiconductor UF cable and a roll of duct tape wouldn?t work. :angel:

As to the support all one needs is to spend a day in the court room to find out how to get support. Everyday someone goes to jail for not doing their part in supporting. :happysad:

Now if you don?t think this post is funny then you can do what Larry said and just get out of here or he will tell his sister holy moley :slaphead:
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:lol:
 
Michael15956 said:
Now right there Don, is something I agree with! Good job! I now agree that the picture in the OP is a violation!
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Michael, I said the same thing in post #51.:?


You're still forgetting/overlooking/don't want to see, the part about PVC not being permitted to support the box. As far as 352.12(B), the phrase "or other equipment not described in 352.10(H)" would cover box.

(B) Support of Luminaires. For the support of luminaires
or other equipment not described in 352.10(H).
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Perhaps you were upset at the time and didn't see it.
Again, sorry if you took me wrong the other night.:)
 
Little Bill said:
Michael, I said the same thing in post #51.:?


You're still forgetting/overlooking/don't want to see, the part about PVC not being permitted to support the box. As far as 352.12(B), the phrase "or other equipment not described in 352.10(H)" would cover box.



Perhaps you were upset at the time and didn't see it.
Again, sorry if you took me wrong the other night.:)
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Bill, sorry, but I just saw 352.10(H) standing alone. When put in conjunction with 352.12 & "not described" in 352.10(H) I then agreed. Wasn't until Don's post that I realized the sections coming together. Guess we were all focused on that fitting issue! :)

Again, sorry for not seeing that in your post. Hope we are cool?
 
Michael15956 said:
Bill, sorry, but I just saw 352.10(H) standing alone. When put in conjunction with 352.12 & "not described" in 352.10(H) I then agreed. Wasn't until Don's post that I realized the sections coming together. Guess we were all focused on that fitting issue! :)

Again, sorry for not seeing that in your post. Hope we are cool?
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We are cool!:cool:

Well, not exactly, as it's 107 deg. here!:happysad:
 
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