outdoor receptacles

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Thanks for the welcome..

Thanks for the welcome..

Bob,

Thanks!! I love this site too and find a lot of useful info here...

Hillbilly, that's exactly my point. I can see where you and Trevor (and Bob and Infinity......) see it that way, but taken in the grammatical (is that even a word?) literal sense then you guys are mistaken.

Heck, it took me several readings out loud, and with different pauses and emphasis, to figure out what the heck this Code Article is trying to say!!

Like I said, clear as mud!!! :)

edited to add: But I DO agree that a receptacle would be required in this case, but at what height to avoid potential flooding? And how accessable would it need to be?
 
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We do em all the time up on stilts in flood zones. For us "flood" zone usually means tsunami. My county requires gfi protection for any outlet below flood level. It drew blank stares at the building department when I brought up the fact that the poco meter is not gfi protected and is usually below flood levels in the flood zone areas.
 
mxslick said:
Hillbilly, that's exactly my point. I can see where you and Trevor (and Bob and Infinity......) see it that way, but taken in the grammatical (is that even a word?) literal sense then you guys are mistaken.
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OK, lets think on this.

So if I have to take one step up from grade level to enter the home it is now not at grade level and no outdoor receptacles are required.

This will pretty much eliminate the need for any home to have an outdoor receptacle.

Or did you folks have a number of steps up from grade before it is not at grade level? ;)

Also why did the CMP have to continue that section with

at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade

If the dwelling must be at grade level before a receptacle is required why did they tell us that the receptacle must be accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade?

Where they concerned electricians would be installing the required outdoor receptacle outlet on a grade level dwelling up above 6' - 6"?

No, IMO they are making sure a that a home like a stilt home for example, would have an outdoor receptacle installed down low even if the home is up high.
 
(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.

1. this is the section for outdoor outlets
2. the ones for one family and also two family THAT IS AT GRADE LEVEL
3.the outlets required are for at grade level dwellings
4.stilt homes are not at grade level
5.this section does not say anything about receptacles for above grade level.
6. notice it says GRADE LEVEL 3 times.First time is to single out grade level dwellings,second time it refers to the outlets are to be accessible,3rd time is to limit the height.
Hard to read but it still is very clear on one issue and that is for grade level homes.If it was for all homes they would have left out the first GRADE LEVEL.

This might not be what they intended but it is what they said.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
This might not be what they intended but it is what they said.
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Jim explain it to me what did they say?

By your interpretation no dwelling unit is at grade level as any house has step(s) to bring you from outside at grade to inside above grade level.

Exactly how many of these steps does it take before a dwelling unit is not at grade level?

One, two, six, ten?? Please make me understand.
 
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marinesgt0411 said:
so would a two family dwelling on stilts require the receptical neither of which is at grade level?
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If neither one is at grade level they must be floating on air or hanging from a sky hook.
The code says "For a one family dwelling"....that's a singular term...
that means ALL of them... every last one.
I don't care how high the foundation is or how many steps it takes to get on the porch, ALL of them.
AND........ Each unit of a 2 family dwellings that is at grade level......
Got that?......AND each unit of a 2 family that is at grade level.....If ther're stacked on top of each other then ONE of them has to be at grade level........ I don't care if there are 100 steps to get up to the first one .....that one on the bottom, that one that's sitting on the ground, had better have a outside receptacle that is not more than 6'-6" from the ground (above grade). If they're side by side, then both of them.
It seems simple to me.
steve
 
iwire said:
Jim explain it to me what did they say?

By your interpretation no dwelling unit is at grade level as any house has step(s) to bring you from outside at grade to inside above grade level.

Exactly how many of these steps does it take before a dwelling unit is not at grade level?

One, two, six, ten?? Please make me understand.
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I know where your going with this and i 100% with you that in reality no house is likely to be at grade level.They picked the words not me.One step or a few and i might say grade level,10 feet off the ground,NO.It also leaves out what to do with a house that might be in a hill side.

Why did they say dwellings at grade level ? Thats what causes the dought.Had they said ALL dwellings there would be no dought.What do you call the area under a house thats 10 feet off the ground ? The more i read nec and this forum the more i see a need for it to get a makeover.As it is now one would need an english degree and hire a lawyer full time.The fact that so many posts here go to well over 100 replys with no true answer proves we have a problem.

I believe most people would want a front and back outlet no matter what the height is.At question is not wanting but being required.The stilt home is simply not at grade level.Is the one thats a foot off ground at grade ? This is up to the ahj.
 
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(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.

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(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling, and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.


Notice the differance between the 2
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I know where your going with this and i 100% with you that in reality no house is likely to be at grade level.
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Jim you got it.

Until you can show where the NEC explains how many steps I can climb before I am no longer at grade level you can't prove your point.
 
Ok ,Bob and any others lets try it this way.

Condition # 1 house is at same elevation as yard
condition # 2 house is one foot higher than yard
condition # 3 house is four feet higher than yard
condition # 4 house is ten feet higher than yard

Which ones are AT GRADE LEVEL ?
 
iwire said:
Jim you got it.

Until you can show where the NEC explains how many steps I can climb before I am no longer at grade level you can't prove your point.
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Bob, your argument has more validity than mine, but what I (an industrial electrical designer/installer) feel about this residential situation is that a noninhabitable level, as in parking, storage, (I' in the old south, servant's quarters of old) BY NEC, doesn't need the outlet. I'd define "how many steps" as is there a grade level "occupancy", whether or not it is a habital occupancy. Occupancy is likely the wrong word; "space" would better fit.
 
Jim, All four are at grade level. A gfi is required not to be over 6' unless in a flood zone then nothing below that zone. At least that is what the inspector gods told me over the years.
 
I brought up the flood zone thing just because of this very issue.Nothing in the NEC addresses this but it does give us a height max. in which a required receptacle outlet can be counted as meeting the min. requirements for a SFD.In Pinellas county where i`ve done many homes the usual flood plane is around 14 ft A.S.L.The AHJ told me (chief insp.)That they don`t care about the poco`s meter but the disc.Has to be above fllood level.They allow 1 gfci recep below that level and a switch or a motion sensor in lieu of a switch.So does the grade start at the ground or at the applicable flood level ????
The area under the home is not designated as a storage area or a garage just a flood zone.They build blow out walls that are usually converted (after C.O.) into living areas.Try and convince a customer that they have to use a 10 ft. stick to turn on/off the lights of the $2,000,000.00 home on the coast because the code says they have to be above the flood zone and that measurement is in the ceiling of the home they just had built,you get some really angry statements.Putting it mildly.
 
(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.

Needs changed to

(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling and each unit of a two-family dwelling , at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.

But that will be making the second floor dwelling needing the outlets too.
Are we suggesting that only bottom floor needs them ? Now we have the bottom floor paying the bill for the top floor when he uses this outlet.

Or we could fix it this way

(E) Outdoor Outlets. For a one-family dwelling, and each unit of a two-family dwelling that is at grade level, at least one receptacle outlet accessible at grade level and not more than 2.0 m (61/2 ft) above grade shall be installed at the front and back of the dwelling.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Ok ,Bob and any others lets try it this way.

Condition # 1 house is at same elevation as yard
condition # 2 house is one foot higher than yard
condition # 3 house is four feet higher than yard
condition # 4 house is ten feet higher than yard

Which ones are AT GRADE LEVEL ?
Click to expand...

None are really at grade level.

Even a slab home is at least one step up.

That aside the outdoot receptacle is required for all of these.

IMO they are not having us install the outlet 'for' the house, the outlet is to be used in the yard for things like vacuuming the car, electric lawn tools etc.

Do you think the NEC wants the HO to have to drop a cord out the window from 10' up?
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Do you think the NEC wants the HO to have to drop a cord out the window from 10' up?

No Bob,but i dont think they are suggesting he uses the 1 st floors receptacle.
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I think they are suggesting just that.

They are more interested in safety than any beef with the neighbor for using their outlet.

I am done, you go ahead and leave the outlets out if you want, it is always so much easier to go back and install it later. :D
 
Do I understand correctly
If the dwellings are x feet above the ground they are to be considered "at grade level" then I take my measurement from the floor of the porch, put a recptacle on the porch (within 6 1/2 feet of the floor)and it would meet the requirement?

In other words the floor of the dwelling is the grade level not the ground ?
 
monsteriname said:
Do I understand correctly
If the dwellings are x feet above the ground they are to be considered "at grade level" then I take my measurement from the floor of the porch, put a recptacle on the porch (within 6 1/2 feet of the floor)and it would meet the requirement?

In other words the floor of the dwelling is the grade level not the ground ?
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No...The ground IS the grade level.
The stilts (or foundation) are part of the house. Where the house (this includes any part of it) touches the dirt is where "the rubber meets the road"........GRADE LEVEL.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
steve
 
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