panel change arc fault requirements

[Sierrasparky]

Your scenario is the perfect example for why I find it better to replace the GEM box with a larger cubic inch box, or use a surface extension box, at the outset, rather than risk the falling dominos.

Correct, agreed, done that. It just makes the job more time and expense.
The wiremold extension works well but ugly as all get up.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Hey Al,
Weren't you the one that years ago said no way you would install AFCI as replacement receptacles?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Hey Al,
Weren't you the one that years ago said no way you would install AFCI as replacement receptacles?

I don't think so. It took until the release of the Dual Function OBC AFCI / GFCI before all the bases were covered, for me, that the language of 210.12 and 406.4(D) created. Until this, the replacement of a receptacle on an ungrounded wiring method, to Code, has been problematic for me in the market I work in. I see a lot of wood framed buildings with knob and tube branch circuits still in service.

I have been quick to expose the limitations of lesser hardware, and quick to complain about the economic hit for the poor client caused by "having to" comply with the Code.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't think so. It took until the release of the Dual Function OBC AFCI / GFCI before all the bases were covered, for me, that the language of 210.12 and 406.4(D) created. Until this, the replacement of a receptacle on an ungrounded wiring method, to Code, has been problematic for me in the market I work in. I see a lot of wood framed buildings with knob and tube branch circuits still in service.

I have been quick to expose the limitations of lesser hardware, and quick to complain about the economic hit for the poor client caused by "having to" comply with the Code.

I guess you don't remember this lively thread( not the exact words I had referenced) :

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=160967&page=2&highlight=afci+replacements

 

[Saturn_Europa]

Hey Al,
Weren't you the one that years ago said no way you would install AFCI as replacement receptacles?

Dang man! You have a long memory. I can't remember what I had for lunch!

 

[al hildenbrand]

I guess you don't remember this lively thread( not the exact words I had referenced) :

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=160967&page=2&highlight=afci+replacements

I remember it well. If you tease out what I'm saying, I'm championing my poor client with a K&T method that requires a receptacle replacement. The 2014 NEC was not yet in effect in Minnesota and I've noticed that the 2014 NEC 210.12(B) Exception is global as written and I'm talking it up. I really enjoyed that exchange.

In my humble opinion, this, in part, was why the CMPs added Exception No. 2 to 2017 NEC 406.4(D)(4).

 

[Sierrasparky]

Dang man! You have a long memory. I can't remember what I had for lunch!

Hey it was a lively conversation.



Can you say Elephant, Don't cross me:happyyes:, Truth is I can only remember stuff I was intimately involved in. If I am not interested in something no matter how many times I read it , it does not stick.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I remember it well. If you tease out what I'm saying, I'm championing my poor client with a K&T method that requires a receptacle replacement. The 2014 NEC was not yet in effect in Minnesota and I've noticed that the 2014 NEC 210.12(B) Exception is global as written and I'm talking it up. I really enjoyed that exchange.

In my humble opinion, this, in part, was why the CMPs added Exception No. 2 to 2017 NEC 406.4(D)(4).

It was . That is what is great about this forum.

What is Exception No. 2 to 2017 NEC 406.4(D)(4)?

I don't have a 2017 and the CA pre adoption version won't be available for a couple of months still.

 

[al hildenbrand]

It was . That is what is great about this forum.

What is Exception No. 2 to 2017 NEC 406.4(D)(4)?

2017 NEC 406.4(D)(4) Exception No. 2

Section 210.12(B) Exception shall not apply to the replacement of receptacles.

Curiously, this is something that should be an Errata for the 2017 NEC because the Exception was moved from (B) to 210.12 (D). (But nevermind.)

 

[ramsy]

It took until the release of the Dual Function OBC AFCI / GFCI before all the bases were covered, for me, ..

Roger that, when replacing outlet bombs, Leviton’s DF-OBC package has a foldout picture of a house marked with orange & yellow dots. Nothing like a visual aid to show client what each room requires.

If online client reviews made your service stand out, opening up that foldout removes all doubt.

Once you’ve made another believer, its your call if fuse box gets that AFCI or not.

I make room for AFCI’s in GE equipment, or other fus-box space with room for expansion. Dwellngs find ways to bury and forget reset buttons, especially if below counter top level.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I make room for AFCI’s in GE equipment, or other fus-box space with room for expansion. Dwellngs find ways to bury and forget reset buttons, especially if below counter top level.

Why only for GE ?

How do dwellings find ways. Do you have a Magic house?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So Dennis you got the exception and that was good for us all. I still highly doubt that the original intention was not to create the upgrading of all circuits to AFCI as time goes on regardless.

The problem was all the hoopla over them AFCI's.

You can doubt it but I will have to disagree as I have talked to a member from that panel and he said it was never the intent to require it on a panel change.

If I change a panel and there are 2 wire circuits there, then do I have to upgrade those circuits to 3 wire circuits? The modification of circuits has been there in 2011 and some inspectors tried to make the ec's install afci's. The state here stopped it after talking with the cmp members. So to clarify that point I wrote the exception.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You can doubt it but I will have to disagree as I have talked to a member from that panel and he said it was never the intent to require it on a panel change.

If I change a panel and there are 2 wire circuits there, then do I have to upgrade those circuits to 3 wire circuits? The modification of circuits has been there in 2011 and some inspectors tried to make the ec's install afci's. The state here stopped it after talking with the cmp members. So to clarify that point I wrote the exception.

Understand , How is that different than requiring AFCI upon a receptacle replacement?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Understand , How is that different than requiring AFCI upon a receptacle replacement?

210.12 is about AFCI protection on Branch Circuits.
406.4(D)(4) is about Receptacle Outlet Device replacement and AFCI protection.

I infer from your question that you see the "requiring AFCI" as the same in those two rules. What are the words in the NEC that say this?

 

[ramsy]

Why only for GE ?

How do dwellings find ways. Do you have a Magic house?

When was the last time you crawled in an attic?

Were you amazed why some dwellings did not burn down, after DIY homeowners & friends played Micky Mouse with the wiring.

If not cross-circuited J-boxes, next to melted candle wax, its flying splices to can lights, fed by #6 to 30A disconnects tossed into crawl space.

Every renovation I encounter is after the fact, and missing required GFCI's, Tamper Resistant plugs, or energy controls on new lighting, but the marble counters, cabinets, & new fixtures always look good.

Duct-tape splices remain buried behind walls, and no-one sees multiple 20A breakers tied to the same outlets with #14 wire. The only reason some circuits are properly separated is due to blast marks on box covers - 240v bombs went off when opposite legs would not go together.

Try putting any AFCI breaker on a remodeled dwelling - it trips immediately, without any associate red wire or MWBC.

Now after wrestling with the fuse box, removing all breakers to get to that cable sheath & neutral, don't you dare try billing for the time, much less for traceing-out & separating crossed-neutral circuits in some other outlet box. But now you touched it, your responsible, and you can leave it fixed, just don't bill me for it.

If there were any additions, remodels or other crack addicts before you, GE fuse boxes may be the only AFCI breakers that hold.

 

[infinity]

I think the intent was to never require afci for panel changes but the 2011 is not clear on that issue. The 2014 and 2017 NEC exceptions make it clear, IMO.

I agree. Unless a jurisdiction has specifically changed the requirement it is not required by the NEC.

 

[Sierrasparky]

When was the last time you crawled in an attic?

Were you amazed why some dwellings did not burn down, after DIY homeowners & friends played Micky Mouse with the wiring.

If not cross-circuited J-boxes, next to melted candle wax, its flying splices to can lights, fed by #6 to 30A disconnects tossed into crawl space.

Every renovation I encounter is after the fact, and missing required GFCI's, Tamper Resistant plugs, or energy controls on new lighting, but the marble counters, cabinets, & new fixtures always look good.

Duct-tape splices remain buried behind walls, and no-one sees multiple 20A breakers tied to the same outlets with #14 wire. The only reason some circuits are properly separated is due to blast marks on box covers - 240v bombs went off when opposite legs would not go together.

Try putting any AFCI breaker on a remodeled dwelling - it trips immediately, without any associate red wire or MWBC.

Now after wrestling with the fuse box, removing all breakers to get to that cable sheath & neutral, don't you dare try billing for the time, much less for traceing-out & separating crossed-neutral circuits in some other outlet box. But now you touched it, your responsible, and you can leave it fixed, just don't bill me for it.

If there were any additions, remodels or other crack addicts before you, GE fuse boxes may be the only AFCI breakers that hold.

Welcome to home electrical repairs.
I have no problem charging for stuff like that. It's not my problem it is theirs. I'm up front with the customer as to what I will do and won't. That I cannot leave the issue unfixed unless they sign they are unwilling to.

The good thing is I am not limited to 499.00 as I am licensed unlike you.

 

[mbrooke]

When was the last time you crawled in an attic?

Were you amazed why some dwellings did not burn down, after DIY homeowners & friends played Micky Mouse with the wiring.

If not cross-circuited J-boxes, next to melted candle wax, its flying splices to can lights, fed by #6 to 30A disconnects tossed into crawl space.

Every renovation I encounter is after the fact, and missing required GFCI's, Tamper Resistant plugs, or energy controls on new lighting, but the marble counters, cabinets, & new fixtures always look good.

Duct-tape splices remain buried behind walls, and no-one sees multiple 20A breakers tied to the same outlets with #14 wire. The only reason some circuits are properly separated is due to blast marks on box covers - 240v bombs went off when opposite legs would not go together.

Try putting any AFCI breaker on a remodeled dwelling - it trips immediately, without any associate red wire or MWBC.

Now after wrestling with the fuse box, removing all breakers to get to that cable sheath & neutral, don't you dare try billing for the time, much less for traceing-out & separating crossed-neutral circuits in some other outlet box. But now you touched it, your responsible, and you can leave it fixed, just don't bill me for it.

If there were any additions, remodels or other crack addicts before you, GE fuse boxes may be the only AFCI breakers that hold.

Not just remodels, but almost any old dwelling even if untouched. You should see condos with FPE change outs- everyone had tied neutrals at some box.

 

[infinity]

You can doubt it but I will have to disagree as I have talked to a member from that panel and he said it was never the intent to require it on a panel change.

If I change a panel and there are 2 wire circuits there, then do I have to upgrade those circuits to 3 wire circuits? The modification of circuits has been there in 2011 and some inspectors tried to make the ec's install afci's. The state here stopped it after talking with the cmp members. So to clarify that point I wrote the exception.

The words speak for themselves:

2-115 Log #536 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(210.12(B))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Dennis Alwon, Alwon Electric Inc.
Recommendation: Add new text to read as follows:
Exception: Where extension of the branch circuit does not include any added
outlets or devices.
Substantiation: Often times when changing a service in an older home the
branch circuit conductors do not reach the new location of the panel. The wire
is sometimes just spliced inside the panel to reach the termination points while
other times the circuit may need to be extended a short distance to reach the
new location. Since many areas are inspecting this differently throughout the
country this exception would clarify this section and bring uniformity
throughout.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise the proposed wording to read as follows:
“Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the
existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft.) and does not include any
additional outlets or devices.”
Panel Statement: The revised wording provides clarity and satisfies the intent
of the submitter.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 1 Abstain: 1
Explanation of Negative:
KING, D.: This Proposal should be rejected. It is the intent of Section
210.12(B) to provide AFCI protection where circuits that are covered by
210.12(A) are “modified.” The submitter has not provided any substantiation to
allow for an exception for AFCI Protection in the branch circuit modification
described in his substantiation. Accepting the proposed exception would greatly
dimish the level of safety currently provided by the requirements of 210.12(B).
Explanation of Abstention:
ORLOWSKI, S.: See my Explanation of Vote on Proposal 2-92.
Comment on Affirmative:
HILBERT, M.: Continue to accept in principle. The issues noted in the
substantiation for this proposal and Proposal 2-11 are often topics of discussion
at IAEI meetings as well as other educational meetings and do need
clarification.
The proposed language as revised by the panel’s accept in principle action
will go a long way in promoting uniform interpretations. It will clarify that
extending branch circuit conductors within an enclosure for the purposes of
replacing a device or utilization equipment or for extending a branch circuit to
a panelboard being replaced or upgraded does not require an AFCI protective
device to be installed.
Six feet was chosen for branch circuit extensions as it should provide a
sufficient length for most applications where an existing panel is being
relocated out of a clothes closet or to comply with readily accessible
requirements, etc.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The words speak for themselves:

Yes I see that and saw the proposal.
The reasoning is ridiculous. The intent of code section 406 is to implement AFCI protection when replacement work is done.

Then you have 2-115 Log #536 NEC-P02 which says , na we did not intend to make AFCI when replacing a panel.

Are the CMP people kidding. They make changing a 1 dollar device cause at least 30 dollars plus mark-up , but not make them required in panel change. Something is fishy.
Probably the fact that the CMP know of the issues with the adding of a AFCI breaker to a existing circuit. Thus not about safety as they claim for the use of AFCI in the first place. :happyno: