panel change arc fault requirements

[al hildenbrand]

The reasoning is ridiculous.

And yet, the CMP, in their own published document, in their own words, tell you that the replacement of the panel, under the described conditions, IS NOT REQUIRED to have AFCIs added as a result of the replacement.

The intent of code section 406 is to implement AFCI protection when replacement work is done.

Your choice to word this statement, as I have emphasized, is making a global statement about "all replacement work." The NEC 2014 406.4(D) is only about replacement of Receptacle Outlet Devices, not about "replacement work."

I don't have a copy of the California version of the 2014 NEC, so, if it is different in this section {406.4(D)} and it actually says what you are claiming, please share a cut and paste, or other copy, of the California code with us.

 

[infinity]

Are the CMP people kidding. They make changing a 1 dollar device cause at least 30 dollars plus mark-up , but not make them required in panel change. Something is fishy.

Others see it that way too. Here in NJ they have removed the AFCI requirement when changing a receptacle.

 

[Sierrasparky]

And yet, the CMP, in their own published document, in their own words, tell you that the replacement of the panel, under the described conditions, IS NOT REQUIRED to have AFCIs added as a result of the replacement.
Your choice to word this statement, as I have emphasized, is making a global statement about "all replacement work." The NEC 2014 406.4(D) is only about replacement of Receptacle Outlet Devices, not about "replacement work."

I don't have a copy of the California version of the 2014 NEC, so, if it is different in this section {406.4(D)} and it actually says what you are claiming, please share a cut and paste, or other copy, of the California code with us.

Sorry for the confusion , I never meant to imply ALL replacement . Just the receptacle.

 

[ramsy]

Welcome to home electrical repairs.
I have no problem charging for stuff like that. It's not my problem it is theirs. I'm up front with the customer as to what I will do and won't. That I cannot leave the issue unfixed unless they sign they are unwilling to.

Thanks for the tip. So when was this, last time you crawled in an attic?

The good thing is I am not limited to 499.00 as I am licensed unlike you.

Your license is not good enough.

Clients now have report cards on their gadgets from Yelp/Google/BBB, before willing to interrogate a troubleshooter by phone.

Charging for wirenuts as material, $499. could be 7-hours labor for me at competitive rates. I'm usually done in 2-hours, for under $200.-

At my age, I'm happy to stay active and get away from my desk.

I don't want to grow roots to my chair, or find myself turning into an annoying troll.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Tone it down guys. We don't need to hear bickering. If you want to disagree then do so but nicely.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Thanks for the tip. So when was this, last time you crawled in an attic?


Not too long ago. 2 feet of blown in insulation, had to buy a small rake to find some tools I lost in the stuff. It was pretty funny looking back.


Clients now have report cards on their gadgets from Yelp/Google/BBB, before willing to interrogate a troubleshooter by phone.

Charging for wirenuts as material, $499. could be 7-hours labor for me at competitive rates. I'm usually done in 2-hours, for under $200.-

I have no issues charging for incidentals.

At my age, I'm happy to stay active and get away from my desk.

I don't want to grow roots to my chair, or find myself turning into an annoying troll.

There is plenty of work these days don't need to worry about growing roots. Just enough time to get it all in.

Don't feel like you are guilty charging accordingly for you time. If you have a service truck with all the parts and inventory to complete jobs without going to the supply house you need to charge for it. Your customers understand. They are willing to pay for competency as well as not having to waste time at the store.

Have a great weekend:thumbsup:

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I believe the inspector is incorrect unless you added more than 6' of wire to the circuits etc as explain below. Look at the exception. Btw, I wrote a proposal to lengthen the distance and define the distance as between the boxes not the length of wire inside the panel. Looks like they are going for the second half of my proposal.

I agree with the moderator on this one.
You Da man on the proposal.every little bit helps. thanks:thumbsup:

 

[Nor'easter]

I just had an final inspection on a panel change on an older home [ 1950's] The county inspector stated I was required to install arc-fault breakers in the replacement panel. IS THIS REQUIRED BY ANY NEC CODE?? If not can anybody cite the exclusion, and if required can anybody cite the requirement? --2017 code and earlier.

We are required to install AFIC circuits breakers on any Heavy-Up that we perform in the (D.C.) city. There is a good reason it's not required in the NEC, installing AFIC's on a 100 year old hold row house that's been flipped without licensed contractors, DIYer's and who ever else has no business doing electrical work. I have to explain to the homeowner why the circuit breaker will not hold and they need to take down the basement ceiling so we can correct the open splices, the ground wire that's not been properly bonded in a 17-a junction box that that way past it's wire over-fill, a ceiling fan that wasn't properly installed, etc. ...... but the old breakers worked fine. It's a 3-wire (14/3 RX), this particular manufacturer does not produce 2 pole AFIC breakers and the inspector does not understand why two single pole breakers will not work. Some of these local municipalities - brilliance at it's best! I have been told it's required in some obscure building code by this DC official.

 

[Sierrasparky]

We are required to install AFIC circuits breakers on any Heavy-Up that we perform in the (D.C.) city. There is a good reason it's not required in the NEC, installing AFIC's on a 100 year old hold row house that's been flipped without licensed contractors, DIYer's and who ever else has no business doing electrical work. I have to explain to the homeowner why the circuit breaker will not hold and they need to take down the basement ceiling so we can correct the open splices, the ground wire that's not been properly bonded in a 17-a junction box that that way past it's wire over-fill, a ceiling fan that wasn't properly installed, etc. ...... but the old breakers worked fine. It's a 3-wire (14/3 RX), this particular manufacturer does not produce 2 pole AFIC breakers and the inspector does not understand why two single pole breakers will not work. Some of these local municipalities - brilliance at it's best! I have been told it's required in some obscure building code by this DC official.

What is a " Heavy Up " ?

 

[al hildenbrand]

What is a " Heavy Up " ?

Service Amperage increase.

 

[xprobinson]

arc fault breakers in the home

arc fault breakers in the home

Most circuits that I work around are enclosed in conduit, but I have been repairing the mistakes that others have made in my home. It is impressive the kinds of things that I find things such as using masking tape to put wires together, neutrals tied together. That is just some of the many things, being for the most part unemployed due to an injury at work (I was injured due to workplace violence, not on my part I was the victim). I really don't have enough to pay someone to fix it all myself. I am wondering though about all the talk about arc fault, and that would be impossible to install in my home without doing one of two things even if needed. 1st would be to replace the main panel, or the other method is to install a sub panel. That is because the breakers do not have an arc fault replacement if I even wanted to buy one, and I am sure that if I could find one it would cost far more than a new service panel. I am assuming that according to code long as I am not doing anything other than fixing things I should not need to install those breakers.

Or would I need to do that so I could install outlets in the future or would this be grandfathered long as I keep anything done at the far end up to code? or would there be some point that it would be required to update the main breaker panel. It is an old federal electric. Also looking at the wiring I am surprised that the grounds are 14 in the MN cable with 12 conductors. Most that I know they are usually all 12 awg for a 20amp circuit. Frankly I don't know how the stuff passed in the past, and from personal experience I see most contractors cutting corners in ways that I find very unsafe such as contractors not correctly attaching conduit so it is firmly attached. As I know that building wiring is not designed to be flexed like welding cable, as a result all wiring and conduit needs to be attached so that the wiring can't be damaged without someone going out of their way to do so.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I can tell you that is not how it is being interpreted in most areas and the exception mentioned above is proof. IMO.

Since I am looking at a panel change in literally in the same place as @DennisAlwon lives (though the county, not the town), this is comforting

 

[RustyShackleford]

The consensus here seems to be that panel replacements do not require AFCI upgrades (if more than 6ft of add'l wire is not required, which it typically would not be).

What if a subpanel is added, right next to the main panel (a critical-loads subpanel, for example). Close enough so that it requires less than 6ft (if any) of add'l wiring. Does it require AFCI upgrades for relevant circuits ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Rusty you need to look at the amendments in NC.. I believe it is 50' not 6' as the nec states. This link will give you access to 2 amendments pages... one was added after the first set of amendments. There is also a link there to NC interpretation of some of the more common issues in the state.

Home Page | OSFM

ncdoi.com

BTW, this thread is almost a year old

 

[al hildenbrand]

The answer is still the same. The NEC is silent about the enclosures involved. The NEC exception concerns length of the conductors.

Interestingly, the 2020 NEC makes this six foot measurement a little clearer, IMO.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The answer is still the same. The NEC is silent about the enclosures involved. The NEC exception concerns length of the conductors.

Interestingly, the 2020 NEC makes this six foot measurement a little clearer, IMO.

I wrote that change but I also wanted more than 6'.. they didn't go for it. I kept getting asked if the wire in the jb and panel counted and I said no but there was really no verbiage that I could back it up with so I wrote the change.