Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
- Thread starter big john
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Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
FYI: I think you mean PITA, not PETA. EOM. AFK.Originally posted by charlie:
BTW (By The Way) IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) PETA means Pain In The - - -.<snip>
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Yes guys when I say PITA it means "Pain in the #%*".
As far as a meter can there is a strap between the lugs so even though the lugs are bolted to the can the strap will carry the majority of the current.
I will wait for more comments on this before I say more.
Yes guys when I say PITA it means "Pain in the #%*".
As far as a meter can there is a strap between the lugs so even though the lugs are bolted to the can the strap will carry the majority of the current.
I will wait for more comments on this before I say more.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
I missed the aluminum buss, if it is there, then I agree with Hillbily, if there is no bus between these bars I stick with my original post.
G
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Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Personal preference here: I like to run my wires long inside the panel. I call it "longest possible path". When I land a wire in a panel I trim it so that it can reach the furthest breaker-- even if I will land the wire on the closest breaker. I keep my whites & bares fairly short-- but the hots go long. That way if I need to move a breaker up or down-- or ever go to a bigger panel I have some slack to make adjustments. Too long= good. Too short= bad. I don't like to stretch wires.
I notice a fair amount of wire stretching in this installation. I like to avoid that-- but I'm sure it was because of existing wiring.
I see a flat buss joining the right-hand neutral buss bar to the left-hand ground buss bar. I assume the neutral bar is bonded to the panel by a screw. For housekeeping, regardless of code I might have chosen to put the grounds on the left and the neutrals on the right.
Personal preference here: I like to run my wires long inside the panel. I call it "longest possible path". When I land a wire in a panel I trim it so that it can reach the furthest breaker-- even if I will land the wire on the closest breaker. I keep my whites & bares fairly short-- but the hots go long. That way if I need to move a breaker up or down-- or ever go to a bigger panel I have some slack to make adjustments. Too long= good. Too short= bad. I don't like to stretch wires.
I notice a fair amount of wire stretching in this installation. I like to avoid that-- but I'm sure it was because of existing wiring.
I see a flat buss joining the right-hand neutral buss bar to the left-hand ground buss bar. I assume the neutral bar is bonded to the panel by a screw. For housekeeping, regardless of code I might have chosen to put the grounds on the left and the neutrals on the right.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Big John
The work looks like a workmanlike job.
Question? Is this panel located on an exterior wall? The reason I ask is it looks like the entrance cable might be going through another unit.
Mike P.
Big John
The work looks like a workmanlike job.
Question? Is this panel located on an exterior wall? The reason I ask is it looks like the entrance cable might be going through another unit.
Mike P.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
I fitted some GE arc faults in an apartment building a while back and it was about 30 year old GE panels with a neutral bar at the bottom. Where the branches came in to where the neutral bar lived, only about 2-3" and whoever hooked'em up originally cut that neutral wire close. I *just* had enough room to make the neutral splices to get to the AF's, but another 1/2" less and I'd have been into external j-boxes.
I originally did neat/short, but then started trying to do as you describe so any breaker can be moved to any slot later on for balancing purposes. I try to leave long neutral and gnds though as well. As breaker technology improves I expect we'll see more and more requiring the branch neutrals connected to breakers like GF/AF stuff. When everything has some slack, a subsequent panel swap becomes less of a spliced up mess and tapping into something like an AF/GF breaker where multiple wires might not be suppored becomes easier.
I fitted some GE arc faults in an apartment building a while back and it was about 30 year old GE panels with a neutral bar at the bottom. Where the branches came in to where the neutral bar lived, only about 2-3" and whoever hooked'em up originally cut that neutral wire close. I *just* had enough room to make the neutral splices to get to the AF's, but another 1/2" less and I'd have been into external j-boxes.
lady sparks lover
Senior Member
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Please don't get mad at me, but...
That big fat pipe...
Please don't get mad at me, but...
That big fat pipe...
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
In a main breaker panel there's no separation between neutrals and EGC's; electrically it's the same point via the buss bar. In a main lug panel there is a separation. Is it just me or is this a New Jersey thing ? (It's OK to say it if it's a NJ thing). ( It's OK to say if it's just me too but please explain why).
Now, I went back to look at Big John's panel. The neutral and EGC buss bars never floated (not even from the factory). They're bonded to the back of the cabinet right from the factory. Does this merely eliminate the need for the green bonding screw ? Should the panel be manufactured that way or was it field modified ?
Just curious,
Phil
PS : I know we're all just talking amongst ourselves here but I truly hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself correctly in my reply to Bob (iwire) but perhaps we're talking about the same thing only in a different way. In the breaker panels that I'm accustomed to using (Sq D) when you purchase a main breaker panel the neutral bar(s) float and they are internally strapped together. It's not until you install the green bonding screw that both buss bars become bonded to the enclosure. But, I can tell you from personal experience that the green bonding screw is not enough to clear a fault. So as an added bit of insurance, when I bring the #6 from the grounding electrode and the #4 from the cold water pipe into the panel I use a metal NMC connector, strip off the insulation from each wire where it passes through the connector, tighten down the connector and lock nut and then bond both wires to the buss bar. In doing this have I not met the conditions you've sited ?
In a main breaker panel there's no separation between neutrals and EGC's; electrically it's the same point via the buss bar. In a main lug panel there is a separation. Is it just me or is this a New Jersey thing ? (It's OK to say it if it's a NJ thing). ( It's OK to say if it's just me too but please explain why).
Now, I went back to look at Big John's panel. The neutral and EGC buss bars never floated (not even from the factory). They're bonded to the back of the cabinet right from the factory. Does this merely eliminate the need for the green bonding screw ? Should the panel be manufactured that way or was it field modified ?
Just curious,
Phil
PS : I know we're all just talking amongst ourselves here but I truly hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Phil you certainly have not offended me, I am here to learn too.
Looking at the panel it must be listed as a main panel only with the neutral solidly bolted to the enclosure, I have not seen that before.
Bob
Phil you certainly have not offended me, I am here to learn too.
Looking at the panel it must be listed as a main panel only with the neutral solidly bolted to the enclosure, I have not seen that before.
Bob
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
Phil,
Don
Phil,
I believe that this panel has the bars permanently bonded and is listed "suitable only for use as service equipment". If the bonding is removable or installed in the field the listing would be "suitable for use as service equipment".
Don
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
From what I can see, this is a main service panel and is only listed for use where it is required to be used as the main mean's of disconect but not as a sub panel.
I have noticed that Big John has referred to this panel as a sub panel and even said he was going to refeed it with 8/3 or 8/4
John is there a main disconect outside for the service?
From what I can see, this is a main service panel and is only listed for use where it is required to be used as the main mean's of disconect but not as a sub panel.
I have noticed that Big John has referred to this panel as a sub panel and even said he was going to refeed it with 8/3 or 8/4
If it is a sub panel then the panel cannot be used.
John is there a main disconect outside for the service?
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
I was very confused about this panel from the picture at first. I have never seen a loadcenter that has the neutral factory bonded to the panel making it only rated for service equipment. After I looked at the picture more I now see the red sticker at the top which appears to say something about an insulated kit. I never used any Crouse-Hinds main breaker loadcenters but I guess they were primarily designed to service equipment installations which was probably what 99% of them were used for. If for some reason you wanted to use this load center for a non-service equipment installation you needed to purchase additional parts.
I was very confused about this panel from the picture at first. I have never seen a loadcenter that has the neutral factory bonded to the panel making it only rated for service equipment. After I looked at the picture more I now see the red sticker at the top which appears to say something about an insulated kit. I never used any Crouse-Hinds main breaker loadcenters but I guess they were primarily designed to service equipment installations which was probably what 99% of them were used for. If for some reason you wanted to use this load center for a non-service equipment installation you needed to purchase additional parts.
G
Guest
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Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
I can't remember: Was a permit pulled on this job?
I can't remember: Was a permit pulled on this job?
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
__________________________________________________
I'm probably gonna pull 8/4 or 8/3 and just put bond pushings on the conduit and use it as the EGC.
__________________________________________________
This statement was made in reference to the 10/3 going to the junction to the right of the panel.
__________________________________________________
I'm probably gonna pull 8/4 or 8/3 and just put bond pushings on the conduit and use it as the EGC.
__________________________________________________
This statement was made in reference to the 10/3 going to the junction to the right of the panel.
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
2. That seems to be a common opinion, I think I'm gonna end up doing that.
3. I'll definitely take a look to see how balanced the legs are.
The sub panel I spoke of is in another part of the house, and is being fed from this panel.
The subpanel feeder I spoke of is visible in my first picture: The white cable that comes out of the right side of the service panel and goes into the junction box is that feeder. In the junction box, it splices into three #10 conductors that have been pulled through that piece of rigid you see entering the top of the j-box. It is those three #10s that I was talking about repulling with #8.
I hope that's a little clearer.
Thank you all for your input so far, I do appreciate it a lot.
-John
[ October 01, 2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: big john ]
The panel is on an exterior basement wall, the service cable goes out into the meter base located on the other side. This is a single family dwelling.
1. I didn't set the panel, I just rewired the branch circuits, but yes, there is definitely a clearance issue with those steam pipes being there. Not sure how it passed inspection when it was installed (steam pipes were definitely there first).
2. That seems to be a common opinion, I think I'm gonna end up doing that.
3. I'll definitely take a look to see how balanced the legs are.
The bars aren't "permanently" bonded, not welded, anway. The bus bars are held onto the panel can by machine screws. One of the machine screws on each bus also threads through the bonding jumper before attaching to the panel can. The red sticker at the top of the can says: "NOTICE: Non Service Equipment Applications Require Insulated Neutral Kit" So this panel could be used as a sub if an insulated neutral bus was installed in the field.
This is the main service panel. The 200A breaker at the top is the main disconnect, there is no other disconnect before it.
The sub panel I spoke of is in another part of the house, and is being fed from this panel.
The subpanel feeder I spoke of is visible in my first picture: The white cable that comes out of the right side of the service panel and goes into the junction box is that feeder. In the junction box, it splices into three #10 conductors that have been pulled through that piece of rigid you see entering the top of the j-box. It is those three #10s that I was talking about repulling with #8.
I hope that's a little clearer.
You're exactly right. As I said earlier, the sticker reads: "NOTICE: Non Service Equipment Applications Require Insulated Neutral Kit" which you would have ot purchase if you wanted to use this panel as a subpanel.
Though I hate to admit it, I did not pull a permit, though I probably should have.
Thank you all for your input so far, I do appreciate it a lot.
-John
[ October 01, 2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: big john ]
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
What I do is instead of running the NM into the side I take a 1x4 wood and secure it to the L/C and wall and run the NM thru the top of the L/C then I can take a piece of plywood and secure that to the 1x4 and have the cables safe from physical damage, and looks clean (still not to late to pull a permit)
What I do is instead of running the NM into the side I take a 1x4 wood and secure it to the L/C and wall and run the NM thru the top of the L/C then I can take a piece of plywood and secure that to the 1x4 and have the cables safe from physical damage, and looks clean (still not to late to pull a permit)
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
I?m not going to discourage you from separating the neutrals from the equipment grounds, I hope you realize this to be a design preferance and not a code issue.
I?m not going to discourage you from separating the neutrals from the equipment grounds, I hope you realize this to be a design preferance and not a code issue.
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
Re: Panel Rewire - Opinions, Please
David,
I definitely understand that seperation of the EGCs and neutral conductors is a preference in this case.
The reason I started this thread was for feedback on what I might've been able to do to improve the quality of the installation. It sounds like seperating the EGs and neutrals would result in a cleaner-looking install, so at the least, it's something for me to think about.
-John
David,
I definitely understand that seperation of the EGCs and neutral conductors is a preference in this case.
The reason I started this thread was for feedback on what I might've been able to do to improve the quality of the installation. It sounds like seperating the EGs and neutrals would result in a cleaner-looking install, so at the least, it's something for me to think about.
-John
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