Panel Upgrade,

Do you guys just cave in to what they demand of you?? If you feel it’s right challenge them—- make a good argument and logical on the nice ones will ussaly get what you mean and the mean ones just take to their boss—— at same time know when your wrong but don’t back down
Authority is only in power cause of us don’t forget who the real bosses are
Deltaforce said:
What if he has a checklist?
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Those meter / loadcenter center's have little dimples in the mounting holes to push it 1/4" off a flat wall for the required airspace. From the photos its not 100% clear if the meter / loadcenter center is truly surface mount, as in 1/4 in off the with the airspace? But it also does not seem semi flush / framed in so I'd have to agree with Fred;
Fred B said:
Whether a panel listed for surface mount can be installed as a recessed panel not sure of listing limitations but the 2023 NEC states:
"312.2 Damp or Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1⁄4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations."
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Since there is by design a 1/4 in airsapce behind the panel the NM connectors above the busbar would get me flagged here, but we get pretty wet winters here.
As @AC\DC DC suggests you can semi recess a panel like that,
I just did one here with the help of a carpenter the inspector requires the 'vapor barrier to be restored' the hole gets flashed and trimmed like a window, the carpenter used that tape they use around windows, definitely more than caulk involved.
Even then all the NM enters below the busbar, and each NM is secured to the panel.
In this case I'd probably have pulled those upper NM into a jbox and ran a exterior raceway into the panel. The lower NM are fine for a surface mount with some sealant IMO.
 
tortuga said:
Those meter / loadcenter center's have little dimples in the mounting holes to push it 1/4" off a flat wall for the required airspace. From the photos its not 100% clear if the meter / loadcenter center is truly surface mount, as in 1/4 in off the with the airspace? But it also does not seem semi flue / framed in so I'd have to agree with Fred;

Since there is by design a 1/4 in airsapce behind the panel the NM connectors above the busbar would get me flagged here, but we get pretty wet winters here.
As @AC\DC DC suggests you can semi recess a panel like that,
I just did one here with the help of a carpenter the inspector requires the 'vapor barrier to be restored' the hole gets flashed and trimmed like a window, the carpenter used that tape they use around windows, definitely more than caulk involved.
Even then all the NM enters below the busbar, and each NM is secured to the panel.
In this case I'd probably have pulled upper those NM into a jbox and ran a exterior raceway into the panel.
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You don't get it. If the panel is sealed to the wall the back is no longer a wet location. If you inspectors still feel it a wet location they should be more worried about the in in the building than the NM cable.

I take it you have never installed a surface mount A/C disconnect or "Bell Box" with NM cable entering from the back?
 
curt swartz said:
You don't get it. If the panel is sealed to the wall the back is no longer a wet location.
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Does a surface mount panel not require airspace? If that panel were sealed flat to the wall how would it comply with 312.2?
Or do you mean semi flushed ? The photo does not look semi flushed.
Perhaps its different here in Oregon we get a lot of rain, the building code changed years ago and they require a drainage gap or 'rain screen' between siding and the vapor barrier or special house wrap that accomplishes this is used.
So even behind the siding is a wet location.
I bet thats not the case in CA.
A panel here can be semi flush then it has to be properly sealed into the vapor barrier, if the space behind the panel is now behind the vapor barrier and a dry location and we agree. (EDIT with what looks to be a old OH service mast its likely not possible to semi flush so I'd use a Jbox and raceway to enter the exterior panel)
curt swartz said:
I take it you have never installed a surface mount A/C disconnect or "Bell Box" with NM cable entering from the back?
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312.2 does not apply to a bell box. For AC disconnects your not typically entering above live parts.
Here that surface mount panel would need to have 1/4 in airspace and NM enter below live parts, or
be semi-flushed and sealed like a window behind the vapor barrier.
For new construction a AC disco, OD recept or wall sconce carpenters have a block put that is flashed and sealed into the barrier, but yes I run NM into those. For old work or remodel you can get a cable clamp that has a gland that seals around a oval cable like NM or UF;
1759420757304.png

Here is what that gap looks like:
1759420457352.png
 
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The panel is mounted with the dimples. If the edges are sealed on the top and sides with the bottom open then the air space still exists.
 
infinity said:
The panel is mounted with the dimples. If the edges are sealed on the top and sides with the bottom open then the air space still exists.
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OK do you typically see installs like the OP with raceways or cables above the level of uninsulated live parts with dry location fittings?
 
If you seal the edges on the top and sides with the bottom open, still outside the building envelope, is that 'air gap' considered a dry location by the AHJ's in your area?
 
tortuga said:
If you seal the edges on the top and sides with the bottom open, still outside the building envelope, is that 'air gap' considered a dry location by the AHJ's in your area?
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No.
Fitting or sleeve required as you suggested in earlier post.
 
Guys
I always try to think outside the box
Can you build a closet around the panel
Are we out of a wet location now?
 
Thank you rnaelectric you brought back many memories for an old Lic Contractor from the 80's working in LA County CA. I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about the Seismic Code (3 1/2" to 4" lag bolts into frame member). I'm Lic in NJ last 15 years.
What I used to do was 1) Always brought in Stucco guy to patch old Recessed box opening (in CA Stucco is big) 2) bring all the NM cables into a 6x6x4 box (flush mounted) open to the inside of house, use a short 1" nipple (use sealed locknuts) out the rear of 3R Combo Service Meter Box transition to Flex (greenfield for the East Coast guys) into 6x6 wire splice box inside house. Pull #12 conductors into Flex raceway. 30 years never had problem with inspectors in several counties of So CA. You could even use EMT 90's into wall to transition to 6x6 splice box. I'm surprised all the NM cables were long enough to land on new CB's. Actually I used to save old 30A Disconnect boxes and strip them out, remove the handle and use it as my splice box. LOL I noticed you used EMT for your Cold Water conductor, the East Coast guy don't do that (run #4 CU exposed for 200A)
Just an Old Timer about to retire after many wonderful years in the Trade. Felles take care of the Trade and treat her with Respect, you'll live a long and interesting life.
 
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