Panel with bonded neutral and jumper

[dm9289]

Panel had a bonded neutral bar on right side via a bonding screw. There were not enough spots for neutrals and grounds. A bare conductor was ran to left side of panel to an added ground bar, and there were several neutrals and grounds landed there. The #6 bare jumper from neutral to added ground bar I believe is wrong due to the bare conductor. Can the bare wire from the neutral bar to added ground bar be replaced with an insulated one to make this installation OK? My feeling is no without knowing what that ground bar is rated for or is this common?

 

[Little Bill]

Nothing wrong with a bare jumper. The neutral bar is bonded to the can already so what would the problem with a bare jumper?
What you can't do is rely on the can to pass the neutral current to the neutral bar. The jumper takes care of that.

 

[infinity]

A listed EGC bar can be mounted directly to the enclosure without the jumper. A bare jumper is permitted but not required.

 

[jap]

A listed EGC bar can be mounted directly to the enclosure without the jumper. A bare jumper is permitted but not required.

Seems they are using the added ground bar as a neutral bar also.

He mentioned there was not enough spots for "neutrals and grounds", therefore, a jumper would be required.

JAP>

 

[dm9289]

Nothing wrong with a bare jumper. The neutral bar is bonded to the can already so what would the problem with a bare jumper?
What you can't do is rely on the can to pass the neutral current to the neutral bar. The jumper takes care of that.

Nothing wrong with a bare jumper. The neutral bar is bonded to the can already so what would the problem with a bare jumper?
What you can't do is rely on the can to pass the neutral current to the neutral bar. The jumper takes care of that.

I had in my head the bare jumper touching cabinet would cause parallel paths but I guess as you said the bond screw is already attached to cabinet. In my mind it just seemed better to put the neutrals on one side directly connected to bonded neutral bar and move equipment gnds to the added ground bar.

 

[dm9289]

Seems they are using the added ground bar as a neutral bar also.

He mentioned there was not enough spots for "neutrals and grounds", therefore, a jumper would be required.

JAP>

You are correct they are landing neutrals also

 

[dm9289]

A listed EGC bar can be mounted directly to the enclosure without the jumper. A bare jumper is permitted but not required.

Wouldnt that created undesired current on the cabinet with no Jumper

 

[dm9289]

Panel had a bonded neutral bar on right side via a bonding screw. There were not enough spots for neutrals and grounds. A bare conductor was ran to left side of panel to an added ground bar, and there were several neutrals and grounds landed there. The #6 bare jumper from neutral to added ground bar I believe is wrong due to the bare conductor. Can the bare wire from the neutral bar to added ground bar be replaced with an insulated one to make this installation OK? My feeling is no without knowing what that ground bar is rated for or is this common?

would that jumper be sized according to 250.102C(1) table

 

[jaggedben]

Is this the service panel or a subpanel?

 

[LarryFine]

Is this the service panel or a subpanel?

It should be the service:

Panel had a bonded neutral bar on right side via a bonding screw.

It is correct that neither the bonding screw nor the enclosure should be the sole pathway for neutral current.

 

[dm9289]

Is this the service panel or a subpanel?

Service

 

[Little Bill]

Wouldnt that created undesired current on the cabinet with no Jumper

I think he misunderstood that neutrals were also going on the bar.

 

[infinity]

Are there actually listed neutral bars that get mounted to the panel? My thought was that only a listed EGC bar would be bolted directly to the panel so the neutrals cannot terminate there. You could use the new EGC bar to move some EGC's from the existing bar to make room for the neutrals.

 

[jaggedben]

I think it's fine, assuming 6awg is adequate for the neutral load on the additional bar. If it were feasible and quick, I'd probably swap thinks around so that the new bar was only a ground bar, but only to be cleaner.

 

[jap]

Are there actually listed neutral bars that get mounted to the panel? My thought was that only a listed EGC bar would be bolted directly to the panel so the neutrals cannot terminate there. You could use the new EGC bar to move some EGC's from the existing bar to make room for the neutrals.

That's a good point, and, the way it probably should be done, but, the way his description was leading us would require a jumper.

I don't think an Equipment ground bar would care that a neutral conductor may be attached to it any more than a Neutral bar would care that an equipment grounding conductor is attached to it.

JAP>

 

[ActionDave]

230.22 says the grounded conductor for the service neutral is allowed to be bare. I don't see any problem with a bare jumper. 200.2(A) uses the words "The grounded conductor, if insulated...", so there must be other times you can have a bare neutral.

I don't think there is a listed EGC buss bar.

 

[mtnelect]

On service calls, I find it very common to find grounding wires connected to the neutral bus on sub-panels. So, I have to remember to stock up on grounding bus bars every time I am at my wholesale house. Also, I find the bonding screw on the neutral bus bar is engaged.

 

[Fred B]

On service calls, I find it very common to find grounding wires connected to the neutral bus on sub-panels. So, I have to remember to stock up on grounding bus bars every time I am at my wholesale house. Also, I find the bonding screw on the neutral bus bar is engaged.

Also see a lot of ground and neutrals tagged under the same bus screw.
Adding a ground bus only applicable if they actually ran a grounding conductor in addition to the grounded to the subpanel. Seen many subpanels set up without, then adding a separate ground bar is moot.

 

[dm9289]

230.22 says the grounded conductor for the service neutral is allowed to be bare. I don't see any problem with a bare jumper. 200.2(A) uses the words "The grounded conductor, if insulated...", so there must be other times you can have a bare neutral.

I don't think there is a listed EGC buss bar.

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.CHN225L.html

I believe there are listed neutral bars that can also be used for equipment ground.

My feeling likely wrong is that the typical ground bar is not meant to carry continuous current.

 

[dm9289]

On service calls, I find it very common to find grounding wires connected to the neutral bus on sub-panels. So, I have to remember to stock up on grounding bus bars every time I am at my wholesale house. Also, I find the bonding screw on the neutral bus bar is engaged.

I see your scenario very often also.