Panel with bonded neutral and jumper

[ActionDave]

https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.CHN225L.html

I believe there are listed neutral bars that can also be used for equipment ground.

My feeling likely wrong is that the typical ground bar is not meant to carry continuous current.

They are the same thing, there is no difference between a ground bar and a neutral bar. It's a piece of steel with holes drilled in it.

Can a wire nut tell if it's being used for a hot, neutral, or equipment ground?

I just don't think they have a pile of neutral bars in one bin at the factory and then they have another pile, the same size and colour, made of the same material that are for equipment grounding only.

 

[Little Bill]

Only difference is the neutral bars have plastic insulators on the ends.

 

[ActionDave]

That would be a difference in how they are mounted in the panel. The bars are the same.

 

[Little Bill]

That would be a difference in how they are mounted in the panel. The bars are the same.

I know, that's why I said "only difference".

 

[ActionDave]

I know, that's why I said "only difference".

Well then why didn't you say it the way I did then?

 

[Little Bill]

Well then why didn't you say it the way I did then?

Guess I'm not edumacated enough!

 

[infinity]

Although some of this discussion is interesting it still doesn't seem code compliant to install a neutral on the EGC bus connected directly to the panel enclosure even with a jumper to the neutral. In doing so there would still be objectionable current flowing on the metal enclosure which is in direct conflict with the provisions of 250.6.

 

[ActionDave]

Although some of this discussion is interesting it still doesn't seem code compliant to install a neutral on the EGC bus connected directly to the panel enclosure even with a jumper to the neutral. In doing so there would still be objectionable current flowing on the metal enclosure which is in direct conflict with the provisions of 250.6.

It's the same when you put the required bond bushing on a service raceway.

 

[jaggedben]

Although some of this discussion is interesting it still doesn't seem code compliant to install a neutral on the EGC bus connected directly to the panel enclosure even with a jumper to the neutral. In doing so there would still be objectionable current flowing on the metal enclosure which is in direct conflict with the provisions of 250.6.

I disagree. Many service enclosures have the neutral bar directly connected to the enclosure so this happens anyway. The way the code requires the service enclosure to be bonded to the neutral essentially *requires* current to flow on the enclosure. It can't be objectionable current of the code normally permits and requires it.

Edit: or, what Dave said.

 

[infinity]

Many service enclosures have the neutral bar directly connected to the enclosure so this happens anyway. The way the code requires the service enclosure to be bonded to the neutral essentially *requires* current to flow on the enclosure.

That is only true if there is a metallic service raceway in which the objectionable current flow is unavoidable because service raceways are permitted to be metallic. 250.6 is very clear that if objectionable current is avoidable then efforts must be take to ensure that it does not happen.

 

[jaggedben]

250.6 isn't 'very clear' at all. It's a broad and vague guidline that's fleshed out by considering other applicable code sections and the details of any installation. 'Objectionable current' isn't even defined.

I'd agree with your stance in a case where the enclosure wasn't carrying any current, say where there is a non-metallic service raceway. I.e where it actually makes a difference. In a case where there is already a parallel path that's permitted and even required by code, i.e. where it makes no difference, I wouldn't agree.

 

[mtnelect]

Could having all this "Objectionable Current" floating around, be the cause of "Phantom Tripping" ?

 

[Little Bill]

Although some of this discussion is interesting it still doesn't seem code compliant to install a neutral on the EGC bus connected directly to the panel enclosure even with a jumper to the neutral. In doing so there would still be objectionable current flowing on the metal enclosure which is in direct conflict with the provisions of 250.6.

200.2(B) says this

(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall
not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway,
or cable armor.

So if you add a wire jumper, continuity is not dependent on the enclosure.

 

[ActionDave]

That is only true if there is a metallic service raceway in which the objectionable current flow is unavoidable because service raceways are permitted to be metallic. 250.6 is very clear that if objectionable current is avoidable then efforts must be take to ensure that it does not happen.

But both art. 200 and 230 are clear that an un-insulated neutral are allowed so I don't see an issue with a jumper wire to a buss.

 

[dm9289]

Although some of this discussion is interesting it still doesn't seem code compliant to install a neutral on the EGC bus connected directly to the panel enclosure even with a jumper to the neutral. In doing so there would still be objectionable current flowing on the metal enclosure which is in direct conflict with the provisions of 250.6.

That’s the lines I was thinking on but I totally get what others are saying.

 

[infinity]

200.2(B) says this


So if you add a wire jumper, continuity is not dependent on the enclosure.

That's true but that has nothing to do with 250.6 which would prohibit allowing the neutral current to flow on the enclosure.

 

[Little Bill]

That's true but that has nothing to do with 250.6 which would prohibit allowing the neutral current to flow on the enclosure.

Than explain a bonding screw.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Can a wire nut tell if it's being used for a hot, neutral, or equipment ground?

The green one may be able to. If installed in a code compliant manner.
By tell you mean an indicator. New talking wire nuts.
Wonder if there's an app.

Happy fourth everyone.