- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I am talking about the two side by side single pole tandems on the upper left. I don't see any Square D logo or information stenciled on those breakers
Panelboard Questions
- Thread starter dvcraven0522!
- Start date
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
If you were, for some reason**, to buy a Square D panel and buy ONLY the Siemens or Eaton Classified breakers, it would likely be a Code violation, because in the initial installation, those breakers would constitute a 110.3B violation of the PANEL listing, let alone the Square D panel warranty.
But AFTER a panel is installed and the warranty is already expired anyway, a contractor or homeowner doing retrofit work can ADD the Classified breakers.
**During the Covid supply chain crisis, this sort of thing was happening a lot more than it had before... One of my local Eaton distributors stocks the Eaton QO Classified breakers, which generally sat on the shelf collecting dust. But in 2021 they sold out completely.
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Jim,
For some reason, the "newish" QOTs (side x side), have no logo on the front, brand new from the factory.
Makes me wonder if maybe they are a little ashamed of themselves for being copycats...
JoeStillman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Chester, PA
They're probably made by an OEM who is neither of them, but sells it to both. I toured the Westinghouse plant in Beaver PA back in the last century and they were OEM'ing for Square D and Cutler Hammer, which was a separate company back then.Jim,
For some reason, the "newish" QOTs (side x side), have no logo on the front, brand new from the factory.
Makes me wonder if maybe they are a little ashamed of themselves for being copycats...
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Since when does the code care whether a panelboard is still under warranty?
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
James.taylor
Member
- Location
- San Antonio Texas
- Occupation
- Electrical
Why not get a proper QO breaker? Classified in my eyes should always be a last resort and if the proper manufactured breaker is available get it! In the mean time a classified may be a temporary solution but if the product that is right is available why would you settle for less? It’s your job to warranty and your license on the line!!! Ask a Ford dealership to install Chevy parts??? Ill warranty workmanship forever but a non listed product (not listed on the panels labels) would never be warrantied as at that point it should probably upgraded anyways. Vehicles didn’t used to have seatbelts but its a registration requirement now and as a licensed electrician you are responsible for it!!!
James.taylor
Member
- Location
- San Antonio Texas
- Occupation
- Electrical
By saying FPE i hope you ment FPE stablock because they were the ones that were known for trip failure and federal made multiple versions. Regardless i have seen panels/fused disconnects from the early 1900’s working, that doesn’t mean they are todays standards which is not only a safety concern but also old standards ruin electronics which are in everything, every day!!!!! If buss bars were sprayed with paint they are compromised, they make enough good connection to work but apply a heavy load to them and they fail! The panel boxes come with a cardboard cutout to put over it till you’re ready to put the cover on for a reason!!!
brycenesbitt
Senior Member
- Location
- United States
How does old standard wiring ruin modern electronics?
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Integrating electronics with overcurrent protection is a power-interruption nuisance, which ultimately fails in the energized state, violates UL 486, and has ruined this standard.
Last edited:
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
NFPA-70 110.12(B)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I once seen some QO classified breakers at local lumberyard. This been at least 20 years ago and I don't remember who actually manufactured them. They were more expensive to purchase than genuine QO breakers were at that time.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Was this company making components or finished products.
I been to plant in Lincoln NE that assembled mostly QO breakers back in I believe 1988. I would guess majority of components came from elsewhere and maybe even from places that made components for other names of finished products.
AFAIK Schneider still has this plant but the QO assembly operation has moved to Mexico, not sure what they are doing in Lincoln plant.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
My guess is the number of circuits is a heat rise issue.
Notice how the asterisk limits the non-CTL breakers to 20A max.
Notice how the asterisk limits the non-CTL breakers to 20A max.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
An individual (supplying only one piece of utilization equipment, like a dryer or a stove) MWBC does not require common trip, so a handle tie on two single pole breakers would suffice. See 210.4(C) Exception 1.
Cheers, Wayne
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
As far back as the early 80s, QO breakers were made in Ireland and Mexico as well as the Lincoln plant.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Unless something has changed from the 2017, that's not what 210.4(C) ex 1 says. It's saying the load does not have to be line to neutral only if its one piece of utilization equip. Doesn't mention type of OCPD.
240.15(B)(1) says handle ties for a MWBC can only be used for line to neutral loads, so a stove, or dryer would require a 2-pole breaker.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Right, but as 210.4(C)'s base text prohibits powering an L-L load from an MWBC, you have to comply with one of the exceptions in order to do so. Exception 1 allows it if the MWBC supplies only one piece of equipment. Exception 2 allows it if the OCPD is common trip. So in that sense exception 1 is an alternative to providing common trip, which Jraef incorrectly stated was always required.
Note that 240.15(B) also bears on this question, but 210.4(C) is more restrictive.
Cheers, Wayne
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
That is not correct. Ex 2 says this
That's says the OCPD has to open the circuit simultaneously. Handle ties wouldn't always open both poles on a tripped condition.
Think about it. If handle ties were used on a MWBC for a 240/120V piece of equipment and the 120V portion tripped, that would leave one breaker energized. This would be a hazard to anyone working on the equipment.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Correct, if your MWBC is supplied by a common trip OCPD, then exception 2 applies. That would let one MWBC supply multiple 240V or 120V/240V pieces of equipment.
But if your MWBC supplies only one piece of equipment, exception 1 applies, and there is no requirement for common trip. You can use two single pole breakers with a handle tie to supply a 120V/240V range, say, as long as nothing else is supplied by that MWBC.
If I've overlooked a different code section that would prohibit that installation, please let me know, but it complies with 210.4(C) and 240.15(B).
Not following--anyone working on the equipment is expected to turn off the breaker, and the handle-tie will ensure that both legs are turned off.
Cheers, Wayne