Panelboards in Bedrooms

[dreamsville]

I think you could be rationalizing the requirement.

I don't have access to the ROP leading to the 1993, 1996 or 1999 NECs, but according to Alan Manche's proposal in the 2008 NEC (Proposal 2-142 Log #3488) he said:

I believe it was a combination of both limiting the area of a new product in a easily defined area, (as Alan Manche states), as a trial, and the fact that NFPA records (as 480Sparky states) show that a high percentage of deaths, injuries & property damage are caused by fires originating in bedrooms. :smile:

 

[480sparky]

I believe it was a combination of both limiting the area of a new product in a easily defined area, (as Alan Manche states), as a trial, and thefact that NFPA records (as 480Sparky states) show that a high percentage of deaths, injuries & property damage are caused by fires originating in bedrooms. :smile:

I don't think there's a higher percentage of fires, death or damage done by electrical fires that started in the bedrooms. I think it's more because people spend more time asleep in bed while they are in their home. Therefore, statistically, there will be more people killed in a bedroom by electrical fires in any other room.

If you were watching TV in the living room, cooking in the kitchen, or sorting duds in the laundry, and an electrical fire started, you're alert enough to sense it. If you're zonked out [dreaming about becoming a gozillionaire electrician], odds are the fire's got a better chance to take you out.

Take a typical 24-hour day. You spend 8 hours at your normal job, plus an hour for lunch. Another hour for commuting. That leaves 14 hours. Out of that, you've got Johnny's Little League game and Suzies dance recital. Or you take your better half out for dinner or go see a movie. So you're actually in your home what?..... eight or nine hours now? Maybe ten? And how many of these hours are you checking you eyelids for pinholes?

 

[dreamsville]

As I said check the NFPA statistics....:smile:
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/foia03/os/AFCImeeting.pdf
page 34 bottom right.

 

[mxslick]

I feel special now..

I feel special now..

From another thread (I'd don't mean to pick on you, mxslick):

I'm curious - how many people believe that a panelboard in a bedroom is not a safe practice? I've never thought twice about it.

Thanks George, I don't mind being singled out on this topic, and I don't feel picked on.

I have read through this thread so far before coming into the fray..

dreamsville is very close to my line of thinking on this subject, so with that a a foundation, (and the picture of the exploded panel from the other thread..any chance the mod squad could kindly insert it into this post as I don't know how to)

Ok let's start with some basic facts that I think we can all agree upon:

The panel contains many connections as already mentioned;
The panel is also fed with a high-amperage feeder which would allow a bigger fault current to flow in the event of a failure;
The overcurrent devices themselves (think Zinsco and Murray) can sometimes fail by arcing/burning out;
By the same token, violent failures of panels are pretty rare (as opposed to recepts and other devices);
Panels are generally robust and designed to contain faults, especially if the door is kept closed (although the panel in the other thread had the door blown off and across the room);
And finally, the NEC has seen no need to prohibit a panel in a bed room.

Ok, now consider this scenario:

You're in a bedroom, sound asleep, when your panel undergoes a fault that either blows the door off or creates a lot of smoke if not starting a fire.

Smoke alarms or not, what are the odds that you'll either wake up in time to get out safely before the smoke kills or incapacitates you, or that you are blocked from exiting because that panel is near or behind your door? Or in the case of the other thread, that door blows off and hits you while in bed? I guarantee that any panel door blown off and hitting you will cause serious injury or death.

Obviously it would be much safer if that happens (as in the other threads case) in another room altogether, it would allow you time to get out.

The other argument (not in a bad way) in that thread from long ago was well, don't put the panel in the master bedroom. Ok, great, now let's allow the kids to be exposed to the hazard instead..would your kids know what to do if they saw smoke/flames or heard a strange sound coming from that panel? What if your kids were asleep when that happened? Would they be able to get out safely? Would you be able to safely get to them to get them out?

These are all the things I thought about when questioning why panels are allowed in bedrooms. In only a few cases (my own apt right now for example) it would be literally impossible to put the panel anywhere else and meet Code requirements for accessibility and working clearances. (My panel is in a doghouse outside on the side of the building, I have all my branch circuits run up to the attic first and then distributed.) In many of my past apts all the panels but one were in the smaller bedroom, the exception had it in the laundry closet in the hallway. (which, um, by the was wasn't Code for workspace once the washer and dryer were in place.. )

It was these points which had persuaded that "stubborn old guy" to see what I was talking about. There were even a few who suggested in light of that information maybe the NEC should ban panels in bedrooms.

My own take on the subject is simply if I have control over where the panel would go, no way in heck would I allow it in any of my bedrooms. Find a place for it or designate an electrical room in the plans and keep it away from any egress paths.

But if I worked for a builder or EC (and I have) and the panel is to be placed in the bedroom, that's where I put it, and I make damn sure that it is carefully wired and all connections are torqued and NO-Lox'd as needed.

 

[TOOL_5150]

In Ca, the common places for panels is garages, laundry rooms and outside. Then there is the handfull of homes with the panels in a bedroom closet.

~Matt

 

[iwire]

I feel special now..

We will see how long that lasts

There is no way that I agree with this

I object to panels in bedrooms (allowed by Code, but I think just not in the best idea for safety.)

In a dwelling unit, with typical dwelling unit panels, with their very low available fault current I don't think you could choose a better or worse location then the bedroom.

The bedroom, a hallway, a den, a kitchen, the garage, the basement all of them contain easily ignitable material.

Unless building codes start requiring a dedicated fire resistant closet for the electrical panel I see no particular location better or worse from a safety perspective.

 

[roger]

Just a few comments,

1. Alan Manche works for SQ D who manufactures AFCI's.
2. AFCI protection is not required for any 230 v receptacles in a bedroom. (think AC, heat, air compressor, welder, or whatever reason one might be there.)
3. The only reason I wouldn't put a panel in a bedroom is the inconvenience of having to go into someone else's sleeping space to access a breaker
4. Behind a door is an excellent place for a panel, it keeps people from using the area in front of the panel as a storage space.

Roger

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Just a few comments,

1. Behind a door is an excellent place for a panel, it keeps people from using the area in front of the panel as a storage space.

Roger

That is a clever thought.

 

[charlie b]

The main reason I'd pick a bedroom wall is because the only walls left are in . . . laundry (illegal - 110.26). . . .

You lost me on that one, George.

 

[charlie b]

You're in a bedroom, sound asleep, when your panel undergoes a fault that either blows the door off or creates a lot of smoke if not starting a fire.

I would not take that scenario into account, when I was designing a residential electrical system layout. My reason is one you have already given, namely,

. . . violent failures of panels are pretty rare (as opposed to recepts and other devices);

I do not see a safety hazard in placement of a panel in a bedroom. But it wouldn't be my favorite location, for a reason not yet named. Electrical problems are more likely to take place when some actity is taking place in the house. For example, an electric range or dryer is more likely to short circuit, when that appliance is in use. Dryers might be in use while the family is asleep (for perhaps a 45 minute stretch, and then it turns itself off), but a range would not be. So problems will probably take place while people are awake.

We spend most of our waking time at home in such places as kitchens, dens, family rooms, or TV rooms. I would want the main panel to be within easy reach of one of those rooms. Mine is by my front door (and is covered when the door is open), on the wall that separates the kitchen from the dining room. The TV room is but a few steps away. So if something started arcing and sparking, I could get to the main breaker within a few seconds, and shut down the power source to the fault.

That's my reason for liking the present panel location. I concede, however, that most homeowners will not be thinking about how and where to shut off power quickly, at need.

 

[480sparky]

You lost me on that one, George.

I think he means this:

 

[raider1]

In a dwelling unit, with typical dwelling unit panels, with their very low available fault current I don't think you could choose a better or worse location then the bedroom.

The bedroom, a hallway, a den, a kitchen, the garage, the basement all of them contain easily ignitable material.

Unless building codes start requiring a dedicated fire resistant closet for the electrical panel I see no particular location better or worse from a safety perspective.

I agree 100%.

The main reason I'd pick a bedroom wall is because the only walls left are in the living room (highly visible), laundry (illegal - 110.26),

In my area laundry rooms are the #1 room in which panels are located. As long as the working space requirements are met I have no problem with locating an electrical panel in a laundry room.

Chris

 

[charlie b]

In my area laundry rooms are the #1 room in which panels are located. As long as the working space requirements are met I have no problem with locating an electrical panel in a laundry room.

I agree. But I will say that the house I rented for five years, before I bought my current house, had a panel in the basement laundry area, located above a laundry machine, not unlike the photo Chris posted.

 

[wbalsam1]

.........Take a typical 24-hour day. You spend 8 hours at your normal job, plus an hour for lunch. Another hour for commuting. That leaves 14 hours. Out of that, you've got Johnny's Little League game and Suzies dance recital. Or you take your better half out for dinner or go see a movie. So you're actually in your home what?..... eight or nine hours now? Maybe ten? .............

Yeah, and the 9 or 10 hours you're in your home, you're actually alert because you can't tear yourself away from the Mike Holt Forum and go to bed....so this leaves only an hour or two at the most that you'd be sleeping (at the computer, of course) so the only AFCI protected thing in the house should be the computer.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That was an excelent thought. Lets take it one step further. Would a panel be considered an outlet. Would it have to be all on arcfault. Even the feeder!

A panel is a device, not an outlet.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

As far as the original AFCI rules there were some comments in the original proposals that said they are needed in the bedrooms because that is where the most fire related deaths occur in dwelling units, however that logic was flawed because while it is a correct statement as to the location of the deaths, is did not address the point of origin. Many of the fires that resulted in death in the bedroom did not originate in the bedroom.

 

[George Stolz]

You lost me on that one, George.

The laundry room in this particular case is way too tiny to house a panel and meet working clearances. And as far as the kitchen goes, most of the walls have cabinets, because the units are small.

 

[mxslick]

Leave it to Clint to "Make My Day."

Leave it to Clint to "Make My Day."

We will see how long that lasts

There is no way that I agree with this



In a dwelling unit, with typical dwelling unit panels, with their very low available fault current I don't think you could choose a better or worse location then the bedroom.

The bedroom, a hallway, a den, a kitchen, the garage, the basement all of them contain easily ignitable material.

Unless building codes start requiring a dedicated fire resistant closet for the electrical panel I see no particular location better or worse from a safety perspective.

LOL now why did I have a feeling you'd be the first to make me feel "unspecial"

True, I agree that in comparison to commercial or industrial locations that the available fault current will be low, but the 5-10k amps which is typical of residential can still cause a lot of arcing and toxic smoke. And it doesn't change the fact that the POCOs don't fuse their transformers to blow on a secondary fault. So it will merrily arc away until it burns completely clear. When I worked with the EC here in So Cali I had replaced a few panels that suffered a total meltdown, the damage was quite extensive. (One was FPE and the other was a Pushmatic).

Again, though failures are very rare, I would rather NOT have that kind of event in any bedroom.

The "quote" feature here didn't pick up on this, but did you by chance get the following from that other forum?

Quote:
I object to panels in bedrooms (allowed by Code, but I think just not in the best idea for safety.)

If so can you kindly link us to that thread? I wasn't able to find it last night.

My position is and always has been that I will not place a panel in a bedroom, except as an absolute last resort.

I also see no reason the Code needs to be changed to ban them from bedrooms either.


This is a good one:

I think he means this:

Which is exactly why I said this:

In many of my past apts all the panels but one were in the smaller bedroom, the exception had it in the laundry closet in the hallway. (which, um, by the was wasn't Code for workspace once the washer and dryer were in place.. )

Other than the unfinished wall that's exactly what happened in my case.

And food for thought on placement behind a bedroom door:

Many an apartment building I've done all the panels are behind the Master BR door. Yea, someone can hang their bathrobe on the back of the door so it's right in line for a nice pretty arc. But the same holds true no matter where you put a panel... someone will put something flammable in front of it.

(Bold added by me.)

The simple fact is, in residential work there is no perfect place to put a panel.

 

[charlie b]

The simple fact is, in residential work there is no perfect place to put a panel.

So I guess we need to revise the NEC to prohibit panels in dwelling units. Is it too late to make the 2011 deadlines?

 

[mxslick]

Who ever said the NEC was perfect?

We could do like the old TV show "Green Acres" and put an undersized generator and have a power strip in the kitchen with all loads numbered, and you can't plug in a total higher than ten.