parallel path for neutral current created by multiple grounding electrode connections

[iwire]

Been meaning to get back to this.

I am not going to address all your points as you made it very difficult to by weaving your words and mine into the same quoted text.

I hate when people do that,

You have no proof that they aren't cancerous. Notice the key word in your sentence: "conflicting"

And the ones that do point to cancer point to specific cancers in specific age groups. So for you to paint with such a broad brush 'EMFs cause cancer is a bit misleading at best.

Im sure many reason play a role (heck car exhaust has even been called into the ring), but until we can positively prove magnetic fields are none carcinogenic why put up with the risk when some places don't even have to worry about that issue? And lets say they are a slight risk, do you really believe someone will say "yup, they are"?

Becaue it makes no sense to guess.

As I understand it one of your solutions would be to change the entire electrical distrution system throughout the US.

That would cost.. I don't know ... billions?

Wouldn't make more sense to spend that kind of money on sure things?

Im not saying all cancers are from EMF, but how do we know a small bit them aren't?

We don't.

But looking back to your own words

No law enforcement agency works that way. Suspects at a crime scene are not discarded. An investigation takes place to gather evidence as to whether they are guilty or not. Those countless reasons need to be investigated, not ignored. Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance.

I would say conviction without evidence is a higher level of ignorance.

Just as spending billions or more on an idea in the hope it might lower some types of cancer is.

In my mind you are putting the cart before the horse.

 

[mbrooke]

Been meaning to get back to this.

I am not going to address all your points as you made it very difficult to by weaving your words and mine into the same quoted text.

I hate when people do that,

I imagine it might be difficult to address some as is.

And the ones that do point to cancer point to specific cancers in specific age groups. So for you to paint with such a broad brush 'EMFs cause cancer is a bit misleading at best.

Not misleading as a whole. The correct statement would be "elevated magnetic fields increase the risk of cancer in some people with some studies proving this" But I think people get for the sake of argument.

Becaue it makes no sense to guess.

Gambling isn't a good idea either.

As I understand it one of your solutions would be to change the entire electrical distrution system throughout the US.

That would cost.. I don't know ... billions?

Wouldn't make more sense to spend that kind of money on sure things?

The solution would be to do what California does, and it does not involve changing the entire system. Only small aspects at the distribution level when older equipment is replaced as it hits end of life. The cost of an extra bushing or winding insulation (delta primary) is nothing compared to changing out older equipment or upgrading existing infrastructure for unrelated reasons, especially when stretched over a 125 year time frame. With utilities getting hit with more and more stray voltage lawsuits paying more to do it faster actually begins to look justifiable.


California isn't going bankrupt. No different than the CMP requiring 4 wire dryer and range feeds, applicable to new construction and exiting over hauls only.

We don't.

But looking back to your own words

I did. I think I did well.

I would say conviction without evidence is a higher level of ignorance.

There is evidence, otherwise some studies would not say a correlation exits. Evidence just needs to be investigated further without bias before a final conclusion is reached. If cigarettes had been benign we would not have seen doctors promoting them in adds

Ok, we will put cancer aside for now. That doesn't discard countless other studies showing a relation to other medical issues. Depression is another one:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071010/


See #6:

http://www.crowdsocial.com/article/1238092/10-professions-with-the-highest-rates-of-suicide


Ignore the site, just the actual studies:

http://www.emfs.info/research/abstracts/suicide-abstracts/

Just as spending billions or more on an idea in the hope it might lower some types of cancer is.


In my mind you are putting the cart before the horse.

Not when it comes to stray voltage. EMFs aside utilities have been forced to re-wire entire farm towns because of stray voltage lawsuits from farmers. There is no shortage of evidence or conflicting reports when it comes to stray voltage.


Preventing EMFs and stray voltage is as simple as correcting ground currents. Correcting ground current does not involve substantial money when done over time.

 

[kwired]

Not when it comes to stray voltage. EMFs aside utilities have been forced to re-wire entire farm towns because of stray voltage lawsuits from farmers. There is no shortage of evidence or conflicting reports when it comes to stray voltage.

My experience with this has been it causes the most trouble with dairy farmers.
The next thing I have found is most of the small ma and pa dairy farmers have gone out of the dairy business and the ones that have survived economic times have expanded their operations at some point and have built bigger and better facilities that do have proper equipotential bonding as well as just overall better wiring practices in the design. Not saying they never have some issues, but not as many as in older facilities that were not done to current standards. POCO's still use the MGN for current carrying purposes in this area, but if a dairy farmer complains about possible problems - they are very prompt at looking into it, and have some access to outside help should they be stumped on something they encounter. They often do end up making new connections on the neutral at any point that is questionable even some a few miles away from the dairy with a problem.

 

[mbrooke]

My experience with this has been it causes the most trouble with dairy farmers.
The next thing I have found is most of the small ma and pa dairy farmers have gone out of the dairy business and the ones that have survived economic times have expanded their operations at some point and have built bigger and better facilities that do have proper equipotential bonding as well as just overall better wiring practices in the design. Not saying they never have some issues, but not as many as in older facilities that were not done to current standards. POCO's still use the MGN for current carrying purposes in this area, but if a dairy farmer complains about possible problems - they are very prompt at looking into it, and have some access to outside help should they be stumped on something they encounter. They often do end up making new connections on the neutral at any point that is questionable even some a few miles away from the dairy with a problem.

I agree, it has been both ways. Problems have been discovered from faulty motors and energized stalls, but utilities have also been found to have MGNs that are several volts to earth even with more ground rods added. They have come out with a "ronk" (dairy land isolator) device that helps reduce Neutral to earth voltage. Some POCOs will set an isolation transformer or just insulate the neutral for several miles only using double bushing pigs which is another method to combat the problem. But I am not to fond of customers having to eat the bill for complex equal potential bonding...


In my opinion MGN systems have outlived their usefulness. They came about mostly so 2400 volt pigs could be reused while the distribution system capacity is increased via 4160 volt operation. Load was light and linear so it wasn't much of an issue. But as infrastructure ages and neutral loading escalating from electronics the concept is no longer looks feasible. Id roughly say (guesstimate) most of toady's POCO need to supersize their neutrals at 150% to 300%
of the phase conductors just to get ground currents down to levels they were decades ago. Possibly more if the neutral is also being shared with a low voltage circuit.


Ive read IEC papers supporting (requiring) equal potential studies more complex for multiply earthed neutrals then fault clearing And it kind of makes sense considering the current is 24/7 vs brief with immediate disconnection.

 

[ggunn]

So I was at my cousins house in Edina, and could swear there was only one HV wire on top of poles in his backyard. I remember making a point to look because at the there had been lots of discussion about POCO earth return. I could be mistaken, it was ten years ago and I might have had "one" beer.

I saw the same thing out in rural Texas near Kerrville last summer and it made me go, "hunh?" It was a string of roadside utility poles with a single conductor running for miles and into a farmhouse. I wasn't drinking at the time.

 

[sandsnow]

I saw the same thing out in rural Texas near Kerrville last summer and it made me go, "hunh?" It was a string of roadside utility poles with a single conductor running for miles and into a farmhouse. I wasn't drinking at the time.

That sounds a little different. The ones I saw shared return on secondary

This one sounds like true earth return?????