Parking light poles overcurrent

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hhsting said:
For a 9kva site pole loads 480V three phase can the breaker be 40 amps? 210.20 would it not say 40 amp over sized?

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Only if that lighting does not have a heavy duty lamp holder. If it has a heavy duty lamp holder, than you can put a 60 watt load on a 40 amp breaker if you use the right size wire.



You really need to look at the thread on the first code section you asked about.

You keep re-asking your question without acknowledging the advice you've been given

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infinity said:
The section already mentioned in this thread. THHN is only for dry locations
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You will find more than a billion feet of THHN/THWN in the ground in parking lot lighting installations. What makes it "DRY" is that it cant be loaded to more than 75 degrees. The installation as far I know is OK as long as it's not loaded more than 75degrees.

I used the THHN rating in the problem because of voltage drop. But the wire has a dual rating of THHN/THWN

Do we have a wire guy in here from the manufacturer to set me straight? If I wrong, the inspectors are going to have a field day. All wire I've seen has a dual rating of THHN/THWN.

Gary
 
WarrMann said:
Only if that lighting does not have a heavy duty lamp holder. If it has a heavy duty lamp holder, than you can put a 60 watt load on a 40 amp breaker if you use the right size wire.



You really need to look at the thread on the first code section you asked about.

You keep re-asking your question without acknowledging the advice you've been given

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I would use 402.5 for this section. Which means you put fuses in the fixtures for the fixture wire. Now you have your correct fusing for the light. Then your section is not applicable to heavy-duty lamp holders.
 
Gary11734 said:
You will find more than a billion feet of THHN/THWN in the ground in parking lot lighting installations. What makes it "DRY" is that it cant be loaded to more than 75 degrees. The installation as far I know is OK as long as it's not loaded more than 75degrees.

I used the THHN rating in the problem because of voltage drop. But the wire has a dual rating of THHN/THWN

Do we have a wire guy in here from the manufacturer to set me straight? If I wrong, the inspectors are going to have a field day. All wire I've seen has a dual rating of THHN/THWN.

Gary
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Yes almost all recently manufactured THHN is also dual rated as THWN. In fact all of the modern THHN that we use is also rated as THWN-2 which is a 90° C conductor in wet locations.
 
gadfly56 said:
I don't read that section as an exclusive OR. Maybe someone can fill in the committee's thinking on this?
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Fixed lighting unit=yes
Heavy duty lampholder in fixed lighting unit = yes, that section is permitted to be used.

Fixed lighting unit=yes
Heavy duty lampholder in fixed lighting unit = no, that section cannot be used.
 
gadfly56 said:
I don't read that section as an exclusive OR. Maybe someone can fill in the committee's thinking on this?
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I can't speak to committees thoughts. but i would say that them specifically calling out lighting with HDLH, means that they want to exclude all other lighting. If this isn't the case, than they wouldn't have bothered with mentioning fixed lighting with HDLH. It would have all just fallen under utilization equipment

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I wish the OP would tell us why his customer is referring him to the NEC.

If i was in his shoes i would tell that customer he can keep his expensive parking lot lights on whatever breaker he's comfortable being liable for them to be on. And have him sign that I've noted the issue.

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infinity said:
Yes almost all recently manufactured THHN is also dual rated as THWN. In fact all of the modern THHN that we use is also rated as THWN-2 which is a 90° C conductor in wet locations.
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-2 has been around at least 20 years. I have NEVER seen straight THHN wire. Of course, I'm young in this trade if you match me against Edison!

I can't remember what was the problem, but I did an FAU dorm and we used the -2 wire and we had some heartache getting it in compliance. I'll have to go back and try and remember what it was. I know it was related to VD but can't remember exactly. That's why I like this forum. It gets me thinking code again. Perfect for taking my Tennesse test very soon...
 
hhsting said:
For a 9kva site pole loads 480V three phase can the breaker be 40 amps? 210.20 would it not say 40 amp over sized?

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The breaker is protecting the wire, not the load. The fixtures are fused at their location. That's where the protection is for the fixture's wiring. No need to go to 210.23C. Now, if there is no fuse at the fixture location, what do you do with the small fixture wire that we make up to?

210.23C IMHO, is more like kitchen equipment that is only fused back at the panel. I could be dead wrong here... You don't have additional fusing in Heat lamps, etc...
 
WarrMann said:
A wire nut? I might not be completely understanding your question...

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We fuse fixtures at their locations. They have little tiny wires coming out of them. The internal fusing in the fixture itself is why I have NO problem with a 40Amp breaker feeding a #8 in this problem. We calculate the load of the fixture and fuse it accordingly at the fixture itself. You are not doing this in 210.20.
 
Gary11734 said:
We fuse fixtures at their locations. They have little tiny wires coming out of them. The internal fusing in the fixture itself is why I have NO problem with a 40Amp breaker feeding a #8 in this problem. We calculate the load of the fixture and fuse it accordingly at the fixture itself. You are not doing this in 210.20.
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If you think about then referigerator, dishwashers, space heaters etc have internal fuse then why need circuit breaker (branch circuit breaker) at all for them from panelboard. Your saying we are protecting branch circuit conductors from panelboard to load?

I do not see an option to fuse for Catalog number fixture DSX2-LED-P8-40K-T2M-MVOLT at the fixture. I have used wire nuts to tie fixture wire to the incoming wire from panelboard. I thought the branch circuit breaker at the panel would protect the load and conductors.
 
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Now, you're mixing apples and oranges.

If I fuse the fixture at its location as we are doing in this problem, is it legal to have a #8 on a 40 amp breaker supplying these fixtures?

That is the question. Are you using 210.23(C) to dispute this?
 
Gary11734 said:
Now, you're mixing apples and oranges.

If I fuse the fixture at its location as we are doing in this problem, is it legal to have a #8 on a 40 amp breaker supplying these fixtures?

That is the question. Are you using 210.23(C) to dispute this?
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If fused, there can be no argument that it's compliant. However, I don't think the OP has a solid enough grasp on over current protection to understand your reasoning. His profile says engineer, but his customer (i'm assuming not the electrical contractor) is sending him to the NEC. doesn't make sense.

To his ORIGINAL point though.. I'm of the opinion those luminaries should not be on a 40 amp. But he seems more focused on cooking equipment than how that code section applies to light fixtures. So i feel like i'm in the wrong for agreeing with his FIRST and only first post.

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I see no issue: Use a 20a breaker and run #12 wires up the poles. The #8 is not required to have 40a OCP.
 
Gary11734 said:
What section tells me I can't?...
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infinity said:
The section already mentioned in this thread. ...
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Gary might be looking for the code section that prohibits all branch circuits other than those allowed by 210:
210.2 Other Articles for Specific-Purpose
Branch Circuits
Branch circuits shall comply with this article and also with
the applicable provisions of other articles of this Code. The
provisions for branch circuits supplying equipment listed in
Table 210.2 amend or supplement the provisions in this article.
210.3 Rating
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accor-
dance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting
of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual
branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where
conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the
ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall
determine the circuit rating.
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Then 210.23(C)
There is no way you can have anything other than a "Heavy Duty Lampholder" on a 40A circuit. Heavy Duty Lampholder is defined when used in 210.21(A) :
"...A heavy duty lampholder shall have a rating of not less than 660 watts if of the addendum type, or not less than 750 watts if of any other type."
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If the LED lights are listed for the application consulting with the manufacturer and the UL standard would help determine if they are heavy duty rated. A 1/2 amp 600V inline fuse would satisfy me, but thats me.
LED lights are not electric discharge and would need to operate at 277V not 480 Per 210.6(D)
210.6 Branch-Circuit Voltage Limitations
The nominal voltage of branch circuits shall not exceed the values
permitted by 210.6(A) through (E).
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Most people have read (D) and its wordy, but I can past upon request.
All ref's are from my 2014 NEC per OP's stated code cycle.
Cheers

EDIT thats 277 to ground, highway lighting around here is 480V corner grounded delta.
 
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tortuga said:
Gary might be looking for the code section that prohibits all branch circuits other than those allowed by 210:

Then 210.23(C)
There is no way you can have anything other than a "Heavy Duty Lampholder" on a 40A circuit. Heavy Duty Lampholder is defined when used in 210.21(A) :
If the LED lights are listed for the application consulting with the manufacturer and the UL standard would help determine if they are heavy duty rated. A 1/2 amp 600V inline fuse would satisfy me, but thats me.
LED lights are not electric discharge and would need to operate at 277V not 480 Per 210.6(D)

Most people have read (D) and its wordy, but I can past upon request.
All ref's are from my 2014 NEC per OP's stated code cycle.
Cheers

EDIT thats 277 to ground, highway lighting around here is 480V corner grounded delta.
Click to expand...


I am NOT following 210 at all. I have fused the fixtures at their location. The breaker at the panel is protecting the wire, #8. Why do I care about heavy-duty lamp holders since I'm fusing the fixture at its location with the appropriate fuse? What was the intent of 210 23 C in the first place? To make sure everything in the circuit was capable of handling the current that could be applied. The fuse in the fixture does this. At least that is how I'm looking at it...
 
Gary11734 said:
I am NOT following 210 at all. I have fused the fixtures at their location. The breaker at the panel is protecting the wire, #8. Why do I care about heavy-duty lamp holders since I'm fusing the fixture at its location with the appropriate fuse? What was the intent of 210 23 C in the first place? To make sure everything in the circuit was capable of handling the current that could be applied. The fuse in the fixture does this. At least that is how I'm looking at it...
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If you're using an OCPD at each pole could you can apply a tap rule then the fact that this is a 40 amp circuit would become irrelevant?
 
Gary11734 said:
I am NOT following 210 at all. I have fused the fixtures at their location. The breaker at the panel is protecting the wire, #8. Why do I care about heavy-duty lamp holders since I'm fusing the fixture at its location with the appropriate fuse? What was the intent of 210 23 C in the first place? To make sure everything in the circuit was capable of handling the current that could be applied. The fuse in the fixture does this. At least that is how I'm looking at it...
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210.23C allows use of "branch circuit tap conductors" that comply with 240.21(A)>> 210.19 and 210.20 to connect to the higher ampacity branch circuit conductors.



I would need to do some more reading to be able to comment much more on whether or not you can use supplemental overcurrent protection in such circumstances, but supplemental protection devices isn't generally acceptable to be considered as "branch circuit protection".
 
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