PE Stamping with customer specification

[Sierrasparky]

Right out of Wikipedia. very impressive.

Actually not out of Wikipedia, Google :happyyes:

Does it make it any less correct?

This thread has morphed into a realm of it's own.
What it has certainly done is expose the internal feelings some in the industry see to handle issues.
There is a huge imbalance of what the consequences for making a mistake in this industry.

The PE makes a mistake many try to explain it away. contact their EO insurance

When a contractor does it many times the customer wants money or not to pay, in a worse case scenario the contractor faces disciplinary charges ( in CA). Look at the Tesla power wall guy. He does not want to pay the installer.
EO or GCL insurance usually does not cover much other than the damage caused by a contractor.

 

[ggunn]

One thing we have proven once again is that we engineers will argue about just about anything until the room is cleared.

 

[Ingenieur]

The administrative code is not "supplemental law". It is the administrative code. It is not law at all. It does not mean you can just ignore its requirement but it is not law.

No one has ever argued in this thread that a PE can just ignore the appropriate codes and standards when doing a design.

wrong
cfr30 for example is 'law'
code of federal regulations
carries criminal penalties including prison
not optional

PA calls it an 'Act', still 'law'
mandatory with penalties, not optional

 

[Sierrasparky]

One thing we have proven once again is that we engineers will argue about just about anything until the room is cleared.

Awesome Well said!

 

[charlie b]

OMG, now we have it that the Administrative code is not LAW? Well I can't tell you for a fact that in WA the Admin Code is law or not, as everywhere else it is.

I can answer that. But first, let me say that I hesitate to split hairs with you, because (just being honest here) you are not very good at it. I think you could benefit from a refresher on Charlie's Rule, which essentially says that "the words are what the words are." I have tried to explain that "the words" in the WAC simply limit the meaning of the seal to the assertion that "I am the person who is responsible for the work." You have taken those words and somehow led yourself to the conclusion that a PE who cites them is also asserting the freedom to ignore code. Those were not the words written by any PE who participated in this thread.

OK. Hesitation over. Time to split another hair. Please don't read into this any words that are not actually written herein.

• The Washington Administrative Code (WAC) is not, in and of itself, "law."
• Rather, the WAC is essentially a "Readers Digest Condensed" version of the law.
• The law, as enacted by the State Legislature and signed by the Governor, is published as the "Revised Code of Washington," or RCW.
• The RCW is written in "legalese," and is not suitable for most non-legal-scholars to use as the basis of their professional conduct.
• The WAC has taken the RCW requirements, arranged them by subject or by agency, and translated the legalese into more common English language terms.
• In every article of the WAC, there is a citation of the RCW article(s) from which it was derived.
• If you violate the RCW, you can go to jail.
• If you violate the WAC, you will also have violated the RCW, and therefore you can go to jail.

 

[charlie b]

I have the experience and I have a problem with the words " take it to task" what a reprimand or go to the corner. ( as that is the general meaning)

Here is one example of what "taken to task" means for PEs licensed in Washington.

Finding: Improperly designed a septic system and after installation it was determined it should have been designed as a large on-site septic system. The project failed to meet local codes, regulations, and/or guidelines in Lewis County codes, Department of Health laws and applicable RCWs and WACs.Actions:

• License is reprimanded.
• Fined $250.
• Take an Advanced Soils for OSS class and Design of Large On-site Sewage Systems class offered by WOSSA and provide notification to the Board within 30 days of completion

Here is another

Findings: The Respondent used a part-time employee's signature to sign 27 ALTA surveys for a project without being properly licensed as a professional land surveyor.Actions:

• The Respondent is ordered to permanently cease and desist from the unlicensed practice of professional land surveying.
• $13,500 fine; total to be paid within 9 months

 

[charlie b]

A quick review of similar actions taken against engineers in your home state of California included:

• License revoked.
• License suspended for 2 years. That suspension stayed and placed on probation for two years. $4800 fine.
• $3000 fine, 60 days in jail, 80 hours of community service.
• $1400 fine, required to reimburse customer $6,175, two year probation.
• $2500 fine, required to reimburse customer $4,130, three year probation.
• $5000 fine, required to reimburse the Board for costs of investigation ($14,000), license revoked.
• $3000 fine, license voluntarily surrendered.
• Plenty more where that came from.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Now you are putting words in my mouth.
Boy I wish I could close this thread at the last word.


By the way those charges and fines you list are far a few of the norm.

 

[skeshesh]

Now you are putting words in my mouth.
Boy I wish I could close this thread at the last word.


By the way those charges and fines you list are far a few of the norm.

I must say I'm a little surprised reading through this thread.

You and Charlie are agreeing in many ways. All he is saying is the legal definition of the act of stamping is to identify him as the licensed professional. Why do you think that he's trying to evade his other legal responsibilities by stating that legal definition?

You must have missed the following post - it doesn't get much more clear than that:

Will you PLEASE WAKE UP to the fact that I have, many times, said that I follow code. I never said otherwise. I am not trying to bamboozle anyone. This is not semantics. I know the law in my state, and I follow the law. All I have tried to do in this thread is to clarify what the law says. So, for one last time, here is the TWO PART STORY:

1. One law says I have to follow code. Check. Got it. Will do.
2. A different law says that when I seal and sign, I am announcing that I did the work. Check. Got it. I'm OK making that announcement.

If you once again state, or even imply, that I or any other PE is neglecting our duties to follow code, I will close this thread.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I must say I'm a little surprised reading through this thread.

You and Charlie are agreeing in many ways. All he is saying is the legal definition of the act of stamping is to identify him as the licensed professional. Why do you think that he's trying to evade his other legal responsibilities by stating that legal definition?

You must have missed the following post - it doesn't get much more clear than that:

Yes I did read that.

Yes we do agree to much of it. He just does not like how I interpret it. It's my opinion and that is not going to change. Not because of being stubborn but because I have experience with intransigent PE's not saying Charlie is as I have never worked with him.

 

[gadfly56]

I think the OP's question was answered long ago, in a part of this thread far, far away. At this point we're generating all heat and no light. I'd suggest one of the mods close this thread.

 

[Sierrasparky]

no problem here. Close it.

 

[JFletcher]

When y'all get done can you stamp this for me? The beer's gettin' warm.

View attachment 20192

(Backstory: Actual diagram I sent (in anger) to the building department when they refused to give me a permit without a "one line diagram" to install a quad in a trash enclosure. It was accepted. )

Edit to add: here's a good one I drew for a landscaper when I told him I needed a trencher for a week, and he asked if we had a plan or a drawing so he could get a better idea of what we needed...

View attachment 20193

Don't be jealous.

Those are Beyond awesome, unlike the last page and a half of this thread which has become a boogerfest. and yes, I know I will be edited for using the word boogerfest, hopefully right before a moderator closes this thread.

IBTL (in before the lock).

 

[JFletcher]

I think the OP's question was answered long ago, in a part of this thread far, far away. At this point we're generating all heat and no light. I'd suggest one of the mods close this thread.

Is that a continuous load? LOL

 

[gadfly56]

Is that a continuous load? LOL

Load? Yes. Of what, I'll leave that to your imagination.

 

[charlie b]

Closed, by popular demand.