peninsula receptacles

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pismo said:
It does. Please read my entire post and you'll see what I'm saying. 210.52(C)(3) is for peninsulas. 210.52(C)(4) is Seperate spaces not peninsulas. As I said, I would only (as per code) install one. I hope that helps.
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I believe that 210.52(C)(4) is a definition of "separate spaces" on counter spaces as it applies to (1)wall counterspaces (2)Island Counter spaces and (3)Peninsular counterspaces If the Peninsular counter meets the definition of separate spaces it would require more than one receptacle.

I saw an installation yesterday on an island where they had installed the receptacle below the counter top and it was inside a cabinet. Can't see anything that prohibits this as it is not more than 12 in below the counter and it is not more than 6 in inside the cabinet. What do you all think of this?
 
jshaw said:
I believe that 210.52(C)(4) is a definition of "separate spaces" on counter spaces as it applies to (1)wall counterspaces (2)Island Counter spaces and (3)Peninsular counterspaces If the Peninsular counter meets the definition of separate spaces it would require more than one receptacle.

I saw an installation yesterday on an island where they had installed the receptacle below the counter top and it was inside a cabinet. Can't see anything that prohibits this as it is not more than 12 in below the counter and it is not more than 6 in inside the cabinet. What do you all think of this?
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It is not a definition. It would be at the article or article 100. I've never had a problem installing one. But more often than not, the owner or the plans will show more.
 
pismo said:
It does. Please read my entire post and you'll see what I'm saying. 210.52(C)(3) is for peninsulas. 210.52(C)(4) is Seperate spaces not peninsulas. As I said, I would only (as per code) install one. I hope that helps.
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When I look at the two sections in question I see something different that what you are saying. Could you please explain what the words that are in bold mean in these two sections?

(3) Peninsular Counter Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.
A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).
 
pismo,
It does. Please read my entire post and you'll see what I'm saying. 210.52(C)(3) is for peninsulas. 210.52(C)(4) is Seperate spaces not peninsulas. As I said, I would only (as per code) install one.
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Look at the words in (C)(4).
(4) Separate Spaces Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).
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We are applying the rule in (C)(3) and (C)(4) says that it must be conisidered as separate countertops spaces is seperated by a sink, rangetop or refrigerators. If is is a seperate countertop, then each seperate section requires at least one receptacle.
Don
 
pipemaster said:
What do the ding-batters do? They should know what 210.52(c)3 better that most since they are residential guys
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Oh great pipemaster we poor stupid residential guys after all know nothing.We bow to the conduit you run,LOL.33 years doing commercial,industrial,residential and I have never encountered a more arrogant person than you.I`m sure the moderators of this forum will look hard at this post.But I assure them it is not derogatory at all.We are all here to learn and arrogance is no way to learn.The day we think we can`t learn something is the day we have lost the ability of knowledge.
Many newcomers have come here and learned alot from the years of knowledge the people of this forum have bestowed upon them.You remind me of the guy I knew years ago that refused to teach a newbie what he needed to know.Why because he was afraid that the newbie would learn more than him and take his job away.
To the respected moderators of this wonderful site.Please don`t misconstrue what i am saying,it`s just that we all sit here and debate RESPECTFULLY for the most part but here comes a guy that is arrogant and brash.He thinks nothing of degrading others in his own profession.He acts like his is the only valid opinion.I`ve had my troubles with some in this forum over the time I`ve been here but I still respect there knowledge and expertice.
Pipe master if you must be so arrogant please do all of us a favor and stay away.If I am out of line anyone please feel free to send me a PM.I`m just sick of hearing him whine and complain about things that are here day in and day out.If you don`t like it there are several options #1 don`t come back #2 POUND SAND #3 bite the bullet.Sorry if i offended anybody !!!!!!!
OK I`m done venting :)
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
pismo,

Look at the words in (C)(4).

We are applying the rule in (C)(3) and (C)(4) says that it must be conisidered as separate countertops spaces is seperated by a sink, rangetop or refrigerators. If is is a seperate countertop, then each seperate section requires at least one receptacle.
Don
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That is not applicable to peninsulas. It clearly staes only one is required. You can't arbitrarily apply other codes. Why not make it a classified area? Class I division II? Or perhaps use the what if code book. I'm sorry to disagree with you but I know I am right.
 
pimso,
That is not applicable to peninsulas. It clearly staes only one is required.
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The code clearly says otherwise. Do you have 210.52(C)(4) in your code book? Have you read the words in that section?
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
pimso,

The code clearly says otherwise. Do you have 210.52(C)(4) in your code book? Have you read the words in that section?
Don
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Yes I do have that section. That section does not apply to peninsulas. section 3 does. It's that simple.
 
pismo said:
That is not applicable to peninsulas. It clearly staes only one is required. You can't arbitrarily apply other codes. Why not make it a classified area? Class I division II? Or perhaps use the what if code book. I'm sorry to disagree with you but I know I am right.
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No, it does not. It says AT LEAST ONE. Which means "Not less than one" and "not less than or equal to zero". It does not mean, however, "only one" or "not more than one".

I'm gonna take a picture of the page in my book, put a giant red circle around the relevant part, and post it if one more person says "only one".
 
tallgirl said:
No, it does not. It says AT LEAST ONE. Which means "Not less than one" and "not less than or equal to zero". It does not mean, however, "only one" or "not more than one".

I'm gonna take a picture of the page in my book, put a giant red circle around the relevant part, and post it if one more person says "only one".
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Six of one half a dozen of another. It's the same. At least one means one or more. the code requires one minimum.
 
pismo said:
Six of one half a dozen of another. It's the same. At least one means one or more. the code requires one minimum.
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Good. We've established that one is the minimum, provided the space is more than 12" by 24".

Now, go to 210.52(C)(4). The peninsula has a sink in it. That divides the peninsula into two separate spaces. And the language at the end of 210.52(C)(4) makes it clear that 210.52(C)(4) applies to 210.52(C)(3) -- "Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).

QED, the penisula is now two separate spaces, a peninsula and an island. With that in hand, apply the requirements of (C)(2) and (C)(3) to the two spaces.

It would be less unclear if (C)(4) were before (C)(3), but the meaning is clarified by the reference to (C)(3) at the end of (C)(4).
 
tallgirl said:
Good. We've established that one is the minimum, provided the space is more than 12" by 24".

Now, go to 210.52(C)(4). The peninsula has a sink in it. That divides the peninsula into two separate spaces. And the language at the end of 210.52(C)(4) makes it clear that 210.52(C)(4) applies to 210.52(C)(3) -- "Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).

QED, the penisula is now two separate spaces, a peninsula and an island. With that in hand, apply the requirements of (C)(2) and (C)(3) to the two spaces.

It would be less unclear if (C)(4) were before (C)(3), but the meaning is clarified by the reference to (C)(3) at the end of (C)(4).
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Section 210.52(C)(3) deals with peninsulas. That is where it ends. I just don't see how (4) applies. It doesn't give any options in the section on peninsulas.
 
As the OP, I have to agree with don and tallgirl. C4(separate spaces) clearly refers back to C3(peninsulas). As somebody on this forum always says "I couldnt see the forrest from the trees."

Wonder why the inspector doesnt see it this way cause yall (Im from KY) know they are always right.

Great forum Great debate.
 
jcole said:
As the OP, I have to agree with don and tallgirl. C4(separate spaces) clearly refers back to C3(peninsulas). As somebody on this forum always says "I couldnt see the forrest from the trees."

Wonder why the inspector doesnt see it this way cause yall (Im from KY) know they are always right.

Great forum Great debate.
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Peninsulas is section 3 only.
 
Pismo and Pipemaster, just keep reading 210.52(C)(4) until you figure it out, it is clear as day. I don't understand how it has been quoted several times in this thead and you are still discussing it.
 
pismo said:
Peninsulas is section 3 only.
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Howso? (C)(4) is explicit that it also applies to (C)(3). The issue of separate spaces is orthogonal to the kind of space since different counter tops can be interrupted by a sink.

(C)(4) refers to "countertop spaces". It doesn't say "except for peninsular countertop spaces".

Being contrary can be fun, if you can support the contrary position -- like that "Illumination" in work areas can include a lighting outlet with no luminaire and a flashlight hanging from a nail. That's a fun way to be contrary because it exposes the disconnect between "illumination" and the lack of a requirement that a "lighting outlet" have a "luminaire". But here you've got the very plain language of (C)(4) saying that it also applies to (C)(3). And you can't wish that into non-existence.
 
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