Permit for Residential Basement?

[JWCELECTRIC]

Just wondering does everyone pull a permit for every job that you do? Be honest! Even if you go to someone's home for a service call to replace half dozen GFCI receptacles that have aged, or to a store to change couple of ballasts. If something goes wrong with your install you are liable. I just want to throw it out there. I advocate permits though it's the Law, need them to CYA.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Just wondering does everyone pull a permit for every job that you do? Be honest! Even if you go to someone's home for a service call to replace half dozen GFCI receptacles that have aged, or to a store to change couple of ballasts. If something goes wrong with your install you are liable. I just want to throw it out there. I advocate permits though it's the Law, need them to CYA.

I'm not gonna say how my business is ran, but I have a friend that pulls permits for everything he touches. Even hanging ceiling fans, or adding another switch at the end of a hallway, or replacing smoke detectors, add one recessed light, device changeouts, everything. It surprises me sometimes the small things he pulls permits for. He rides around and pulls permits everyday and his guys do the work.

 

[satcom]

I'm not gonna say how my business is ran, but I have a friend that pulls permits for everything he touches. Even hanging ceiling fans, or adding another switch at the end of a hallway, or replacing smoke detectors, add one recessed light, device changeouts, everything. It surprises me sometimes the small things he pulls permits for. He rides around and pulls permits everyday and his guys do the work.

We pull permits for all work that requires them, installing a new ceiling and circuit that never existed yes permit required, hinging a ceiling fan ion an existing properly supported box no permit required, adding a new switch, permit required, yes even one switch, heck it was only one switch that killed a family of four a few years ago, the amount or size of the job is not the issue, all new work needs inspection, to protect both you, the owner , and insurance underwriters. Myself I would never want to exposed to the liability that could result from failure to have permits and inspections where required.

Permits and inspections were designed to improve public safety, cities and towns do not make money on them, it costs the cities and towns money to operate inspection departments, the fees in most cases do not cover all the costs of running these department.

 

[fondini]

Here in Ohio, they are pushing to license every trade[painters,drywall,ect] and require permits pulled for each trade. The catch to it is ho insurance will not pay on a claim if any work was done without permits.[still sorting out how to implement this] I see good and bad from this, but I am sure in this over regulated state, it will be passed. This will end all ho wanting no permits,but what a headache.

 

[lefty08]

I'm curious of what the OP's communications with the HO are? Are you showing a line item for the permit fee(s)? We have moved to a "job fee" proposal/invoice system which includes sales tax and permit fees. Like when we travel, do you really want to hear that your tickets cost $700 dollars, and "there will be a $50 per bag fee"? Just tell me it is going to cost me $750 upfront and lets get on with it. (I'm sure this last paragraph will stir the pot a bit)

My "Bid Price Detail Report" that I include as part of my proposal package includes a line item for "Miscellaneous Expenses"; "Misc. Direct Job Expense:", That is where the permit fee is included. It is also spelled out in the contract verbage in my "Formal Proposal" along with the "scope of work", "inclusions and qualifications" etc. So, yes I'll tell you the total cost up front, but the permit fee is included as a seperate line item. It is just part of the total cost for the job.

 

[knoppdude]

Ok. The last two residential basement remodels that I won the bid for did not want any permits. Homeowners said they could not afford any increase in property taxes. As the EC I walked away from both jobs. My business is relatively new. Started my own company in June of 2008. I am trying to do everything "by the book", but I can't keep losing jobs to homeowners who do not want to have permits pulled. How do you guys handle this situation? Do you just do the work with out a permit? How would you handle the contract? I personally don't want to perform any contract work without the required permit.[/QU



I think you did the right thing by walking away, but I will ask this, as I was in a similar situation recently, and wish I had tried to convince the builder to get the permit, for his protection as well. Did you try to sell him on the permit? Maybe there is a way to sell this requirement to the customer in a way that they see them as a means of protecting them from shoddy or non NEC compiant work. Where there is a permit, an inspector will follow. Good luck, and who knows, maybe one of those customer will call back, if not sooner, then maybe later.

 

[220/221]

Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".

 

[e57]

Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".

Not legal here - but not that it isn't done...

Recently I was at the very under staffed DBI counter - used to be 12 people on the other side - now 1 lady....

But there was some guy 'talking his client' through the process - A Home Owner permit can be pulled - by the Home Owner... And usually - when the silly HO gets to the counter they get grilled by one of the inspectors - to see if they understand the scope work they are doing - and it's a rare deal if a HO can get a permit to do a service....

So the HO gets called over - and his 'advisor' walks off to the elevator.... One of the inspectors comes out, lays the grilling on him he gets his permit. But I so wanted to just jump up and say "The unlicensed hack doing the work is hiding by the elevator!" (And I might have if I were not there for a sensitive matter on someone else's behalf... Picking up a TCO.) But is it my place???? Do I really know all of the situation no - but it seemed pretty clear to me.... Will the work be inspected - yes.... Will that HO get grilled again and hard for those inspections - OH YEAH... (Sometimes thats one of the nice things about our power tripping DBI) Still ticks me off that someone can be so brazen...

 

[Article 90.1]

My "Bid Price Detail Report" that I include as part of my proposal package includes a line item for "Miscellaneous Expenses"; "Misc. Direct Job Expense:", That is where the permit fee is included. It is also spelled out in the contract verbage in my "Formal Proposal" along with the "scope of work", "inclusions and qualifications" etc. So, yes I'll tell you the total cost up front, but the permit fee is included as a seperate line item. It is just part of the total cost for the job.

Lefty, I'm not picking on you, but most consumers don't react well to anything called, "miscellaneous," my CPA always yells at me for having to high a dollar amount in my QB miscellaneous ledgers... I think it is great to include the verbiage in the "scope" and "formal proposal," though.

Are you using TurboBid, it sounds like it based on the title of your documents? If so, the "bid price detail" document is intended for internal use only, but one is free to do what they want with it. For us, that document doesn't leave the job folder and only I see it, too much information there! we are not trying to hide anything, but it just goes back to selling the job with, "this is the scope and this is the price," nice and clean and simple.

 

[growler]

Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".

That's how it should work. The electrician has no control over the job when it comes to a basement remodel. Either the GC or the homeowner acting as GC should be responsible for permitting because the job requires a building permit and not an electrical only permit. If all the EC's turn the job down then the homeowner just finds someone that's not licensed to do the work.

I'm quite sure that if you were able to tell a homeowner that if they are caught doing a remodel without the proper permit that there will be a $500 or $1000 fine and that it is their responsibility there would be more permits pulled. All responsibility should be on the person that is in a position to make the decision to permit or not permit. ( house burns down and the homeowner goes to jail ).

 

[lefty08]

To Artical 90.1
Not picking on me at all. Yes, I am using Turbo Bid. I can see where someone would not react well to a Misc. Expense. That is why I include it in the contract verbage. I debated on not showing the "Detailed Report", but alot of customers want to see a price breakdown that only that document can provide. Sometimes just a Bid Price and payout schedule is not enough. I think it also helps (in some instances) to show the customer exactly how you are coming up with the "bid price". Maybe I will re-think including that document in future proposals.
This is still a learning experience as far as running the business side of my own company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 220/221
Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".


Not sure that would fly in the case of a homeowner acting as the GC. Plus, it still would not get me the EC "off the hook" for doing unpermitted work under contract. After all, only I can pull the electrical permit for my company. Thanks for all the input. These are exactly the opinions I was trying to acheive with this post. Keep them coming! Thanks!

 

[satcom]

That's how it should work. The electrician has no control over the job when it comes to a basement remodel. Either the GC or the homeowner acting as GC should be responsible for permitting because the job requires a building permit and not an electrical only permit. If all the EC's turn the job down then the homeowner just finds someone that's not licensed to do the work.
.

In my state all licensed electrical contractors, must apply for, and seal the application to obtain the electrical permit,

 

[Article 90.1]

Same here, only the EC can pull any electrical permit, which makes sense.

Lefty, I'm still learning too, even after 20 years, and plan on continuing my education for as long as I'm twisting wires together. I have found that "less is more" when supplying bid, estimate, proposal docs. Certainly, we need to include all important wording, etc., though.

When I get one of my vehicles worked on seeing the line item breakdown just annoys me, again, just tell me how much it is going to hurt and I'll pay you. My honest opinion, is that if a customer is not asking to see your math, don;t show it to them. If, however, you need to show them something to win the job over someone else, than you may be better served to sell them. The more you show the customer, the more they tend to pick your numbers apart, and want to haggle.

Selling bids is an art, selling anything is an art, it pays to take notes on what works and what doesn't. The BIGGEST thing I have learned and implemented here is to keep your mouth shut, as someone has said here before, "the first person to open their mouth looses"! If we are honest and competent, our prices are what they are. We need to get over feeling guilty for charging what is required to do a professional job, stay in business, and to grow our businesses.

Best wishes!

 

[iwire]

Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".

Not possible here in New England.

 

[Volta]

Not possible here in New England.

Oh, it's possible . . . .

 

[growler]

Last line on the contract says "Permits and inspections by others".

Not possible here in New England.

Oh, it's possible . . . .

I'm not sure it's really possible anywhere but I stated that's how it should work.

The person or company that's responsible for running the job and holding the prime contract should be made responsible for making sure that all work is permitted and inspected as required by law. That doesn't mean they would pull all permits but would mean that they hire those capable of getting permits and making sure that all the work gets a final and that a CO is obtained.

An EC should not be stuck with the task of trying to talk a homeowner or GC into getting a permit or forced to walk away because said homeowner or GC is to hard headed or stupid to comply with the law. If they make the choice not to permit then they should shoulder all responsibility.

We don't live in a perfect world but this would make things much more simple to enforce.

 

[Volta]

I'm not sure it's really possible ...

I'm not saying that it is legal, or would hold up in court. I am saying that it is possible that a contract now and then may contain that phrase :roll:.

that's how it should work.

Agreed.

The person or company that's responsible for running the job and holding the prime contract should be made responsible for making sure that all work is permitted and inspected as required by law. That doesn't mean they would pull all permits but would mean that they hire those capable of getting permits and making sure that all the work gets a final and that a CO is obtained.

An EC should not be stuck with the task of trying to talk a homeowner or GC into getting a permit or forced to walk away because said homeowner or GC is to hard headed or stupid to comply with the law. If they make the choice not to permit then they should shoulder all responsibility.

We don't live in a perfect world but this would make things much more simple to enforce.

Yup.

 

[iwire]

I'm not sure it's really possible anywhere but I stated that's how it should work.

I cannot agree with you, IMO the person doing the electrical work should handle the electrical permits, inspections and licensing.

 

[220/221]

Not possible here in New England.

GC's and HO's can't pull permits?

That's pretty restrictive. How many inspectors are there and how much work goes on?

Here we can get a permit over the phone and online in most cases. The worst part of permits/inspections is the time wasted waiting for an inspector to show up. I try and let the HO or GC deal with it. I've got things to do.

 

[bphgravity]

Well over 100 electrical contractors loose their license each year here in the state of Florida for performing work without a permit.

Just something to think about.