PF correction by inverters

I didn't say it could be lower, just equal.
But as the grid itself has some impedance, if you measure the voltage at the inverter terminals while it is exporting power, and then tell it to stop exporting and measure voltage again (quickly enough that no grid fluctuations occur), the 2nd measurement will be lower than the 1st. So the inverter does have to put out a voltage that is higher than the voltage it sees at its terminals while not exporting power.

Cheers, Wayne
 
But as the grid itself has some impedance, if you measure the voltage at the inverter terminals while it is exporting power, and then tell it to stop exporting and measure voltage again (quickly enough that no grid fluctuations occur), the 2nd measurement will be lower than the 1st. So the inverter does have to put out a voltage that is higher than the voltage it sees at its terminals while not exporting power.

Cheers, Wayne
It's not a voltage source that depends on a voltage differential to export current. If you connected the inverter directly to the power plant with superconductors so that Vd = 0, it would still export. Vd in the conductors is a result of the exported current, not the cause.
 
If you connected the inverter directly to the power plant with superconductors so that Vd = 0, it would still export.
I agree that if you have an isolated system consisting of a grid-following inverter, another perfect voltage source with no source impedance, an interconnect between them that has no impedance (does a superconducting interconnect still have reactance?), and some loads connected to the interconnect, then the voltage on the interconnect (constant along its length as it has no impedance) would not change between the case of the inverter exporting power and the inverter not exporting power.

But that is of course wildly unrealistic. A superconducting interconnect is possible in theory but not yet in practice. And any actual power plant will have some source impedance, so needs at a minimum to be modeled as a voltage source in series with an impedance.

So if there is any impedance at all between the power plant's idealized voltage source and the grid-following inverter, as there always will be, the voltage on the inverter's terminals will be higher when it is exporting power than when it is not exporting power.

Vd in the conductors is a result of the exported current, not the cause.
When there is current across an impedance there will be a voltage drop. I don't think it makes sense to differentiate between cause and effect here. I also don't think it's important to model the inverter as a current source rather than as a dependent voltage source. It may be convenient, but either point of view works.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I also don't think it's important to model the inverter as a current source rather than as a dependent voltage source. It may be convenient, but either point of view works.
Whatever way you need to look at it for it to make sense to you, I guess.
 
It's not a voltage source that depends on a voltage differential to export current. If you connected the inverter directly to the power plant with superconductors so that Vd = 0, it would still export. Vd in the conductors is a result of the exported current, not the cause.
A superconductor still cannot have zero impedance, because even the simplest short circuit possible, still has some inductance by virtue of the closed loop. There will inevitably be some voltage difference, whether due to inductance, resistance, or a combination of the two, between the current source and the grid. So Vd will never truly be zero, when combining sources.
 
A superconductor still cannot have zero impedance, because even the simplest short circuit possible, still has some inductance by virtue of the closed loop. There will inevitably be some voltage difference, whether due to inductance, resistance, or a combination of the two, between the current source and the grid. So Vd will never truly be zero, when combining sources.
The real world characteristics of a superconductor have nothing to do with the thought experiment, which assumes zero impedance.
 
The real world characteristics of a superconductor have nothing to do with the thought experiment, which assumes zero impedance.
Even if we assume zero impedance, seems like the inverter will only function as a current source when it is clipping and its thermal programming is to maintain a maximum AC current output. If the inverter is not clipping, or its thermal limits have to do with total power output, rather than current output, then it will function as a constant power source. The difference being how the output current varies (or not) with varying grid voltage.

Cheers, Wayne
 
A grid tied inverter isn't an ideal current source. It's power electronics, connected to semi-conductors with an IV curve, i.e. to a source which is also neither an ideal current or voltage source. These power electronics are capable of being configured to modulate the voltage (within limits) at the output terminals such that the maximum available current can be output, but only in sync with a reference sine wave. Such a configuration gives you a grid-tie inverter that behaves as a current source. But the same hardware can be configured otherwise. Shifting the peak and amplitude of the output voltage to adjust PF requires no different hardware (generally), just a modification of the algorithm that controls the PWM of the power electronics. Similarly, no special hardware is required (generally) to convert a grid-tied inverter to an off-grid or multi-mode inverter if you have access to the firmware and the smarts to write the algorithms. That is, an inverter configured to be a grid-tied current source can be reconfigured as a voltage source, simply with firmware. Configuring PF adjustment with a phase shift is just a sort of in-between step between those two.

If we understood the relevant algorithms, which are trade secrets, we would probably be working for inverter manufacturers and not speculating about them on the internet. I imagine @tallgirl could tell you all the details, but probably won't?

Hope that helps.
 
In the world of inverters for driving motors, you can have a voltage source inverter or a current source inverter. The difference is basically the filtering on the DC bus. Filter with a large capacitor bank and you have a voltage source inverter. Filter with a large inductor and you have a current source inverter. Voltage source inverters are most common.

When you ( @ggunn ) say that a PV inverter is a current source, I presume you are saying that it is a voltage source inverter topology, but that the control algorithm causes it to act as a current source. Do I have this little piece correct?
 
In the world of inverters for driving motors, you can have a voltage source inverter or a current source inverter. The difference is basically the filtering on the DC bus. Filter with a large capacitor bank and you have a voltage source inverter. Filter with a large inductor and you have a current source inverter. Voltage source inverters are most common.
What is the difference in terms of the power source output characteristics? Presumably for linear loads, and to the extent that linear analysis is applicable, there is none. But for non-linear loads, you could see a difference?

In other words, if I hand you a black box and tell you it's either a voltage source inverter or a current source inverter, what test loads and observations could you make that would distinguish between the two possibilities?

Cheers, Wayne
 
In the world of inverters for driving motors, you can have a voltage source inverter or a current source inverter. The difference is basically the filtering on the DC bus. Filter with a large capacitor bank and you have a voltage source inverter. Filter with a large inductor and you have a current source inverter. Voltage source inverters are most common.

When you ( @ggunn ) say that a PV inverter is a current source, I presume you are saying that it is a voltage source inverter topology, but that the control algorithm causes it to act as a current source. Do I have this little piece correct?
PV modules act as current sources over almost all of the voltage range from 0V to Voc, and an inverter cannot itself sink or store energy. It can clip its output by driving the DC MPP over the cliff toward Voc whenever the array would otherwise source more power than the inverter can convert to AC, but when it is operating within its range of rated power it converts whatever the array sends it to AC current at the voltage to which the output is clamped plus the voltage rise that the current generates in the conductors.
 
PV modules act as current sources over almost all of the voltage range from 0V to Voc, and an inverter cannot sink or store energy. It can clip its output by driving the DC MPP over the cliff toward Voc whenever the array would otherwise source more power than the inverter can convert to AC, but when it is operating within its range of rated power it converts whatever the array sends it to AC current at the voltage to which the output is clamped plus the voltage rise that the current generates in the conductors.
OK, but for a given install, when the insolation is fixed, and the inverter is not clipping, if the grid voltage fluctuates, the result will be that the exported AC current goes down as the voltage goes up, while it goes up if the voltage goes down. This is the behavior of a (momentarily fixed) power source, not a current source.

Now when the inverter is clipping, if the thermal power limits programmed into it translate into a maximum AC current produced (rather than a maximum AC power produced), then with changes in grid voltage, the AC current will remain at its maximum (unless the available DC-side power would be exceeded). So this behavior is like an AC current source.

BTW, do you happen to know if the thermal power limits typically amount to a maximum AC current produced, as opposed to a maximum AC power produced? Or maybe both possibilities exist in the market?

Cheers, Wayne
 
Now when the inverter is clipping, if the thermal power limits programmed into it translate into a maximum AC current produced (rather than a maximum AC power produced), then with changes in grid voltage, the AC current will remain at its maximum (unless the available DC-side power would be exceeded). So this behavior is like an AC current source.
Any clipping is done to the DC side; the inverter output behaves the same whether it is clipping or not.
 
Um, no, if the inverter is not clipping then its output current will go down.
The spec on an inverter shows both maximum power and maximum current. If the voltage changes either power or current has to change. I have seen inverters spec'ed with an operating AC voltage window and a range of maximum current over that window for max power to remain the same even if it is clipping. Clipping happens on the DC side.
 
I have seen inverters spec'ed with an operating AC voltage window and a range of maximum current over that window for max power to remain the same even if it is clipping.
That specification is certainly clear that the thermal maximum is a maximum power. But I could certainly see a spec that just provides max AC current and max AC power, and that if you dig deeper you find that the programming implements max AC current only, and that the max AC power is just a computed figure based on nominal voltage. I seem to recall having read of such an example here, but I may have imagined it.

Any clipping is done to the DC side; the inverter output behaves the same whether it is clipping or not.
The clipping is done on the DC side, in response to the limits on the AC side the inverter wishes to implement. If it implements just a maximum AC power limit, then agreed, both with and without clipping it acts as a constant power source (of magnitude depending on the available DC power). But if in part of the voltage range there is implemented a maximum AC current limit, then whenever that limit is controlling the behavior (lower AC voltage, so higher current needed for a given power), the inverter would act as a current source.

Cheers, Wayne
 
... But I could certainly see a spec that just provides max AC current and max AC power, and that if you dig deeper you find that the programming implements max AC current only, and that the max AC power is just a computed figure based on nominal voltage. I seem to recall having read of such an example here, but I may have imagined it.
Often the spec is somewhere in between, as it were. That is, the max power will exceed the nominal AC voltage times the max current, but won't be as much as the max AC operating voltage times the current. So there is a AC voltage range in which the clipping is based on AC voltage and then a level at which the max AC power spec kicks in.

Also, notably with respect to the original topic of this thread, on some inverters the max power is specified in VA, not W, and on others there are separate specs for max VA and max W.

As a general comment, it seems to me that inverters can do just about any of the things we speculate about here, if designed to. It is really a choice of the designers.
 
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