Pigtailed Neutrals in Panel for Different Circuits?

[infinity]

For the grounded conductor where does the feeder end and the branch circuit originate? As the pigtail is within the panel, it seems reasonable to me to say that the neutral bar and the #8 (?) pigtail are part of the feeder serving the panelboard, while the #12 (?) conductors under the wirenut are branch circuit conductors.

If you disagree, can you point to any NEC language that clarifies this?

Cheers, Wayne

If I understand your scenario you're saying tap the neutral with a smaller (#8) conductor and then splice on a few #12's. It was mentioned earlier 240.4(A).

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall be
installed in accordance with 200.4(A) and (B).
(A) Installation. Neutral conductors shall not be used for
more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire
branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded
feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere
in this Code.

 

[CuriousHomeInspector]

For the grounded conductor where does the feeder end and the branch circuit originate? As the pigtail is within the panel, it seems reasonable to me to say that the neutral bar and the #8 (?) pigtail are part of the feeder serving the panelboard, while the #12 (?) conductors under the wirenut are branch circuit conductors.

If you disagree, can you point to any NEC language that clarifies this?

Cheers, Wayne

Full disclosure: I am not a licensed electrician.

My understanding is that a feeder is circuit conductors between the service equipment, or the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device. Branch circuits are conductors between the final OCPD protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

In this example case these conductors are part of a branch circuit. I do not think it would change if they were part of a feeder circuit but I'll let someone else more qualified tackle that.

 

[Besoeker]

a short section of wire used as a jumper or extension. Also, the coiled up wire that comes off of a GFCI or afci breaker

Thank you kindly.
Not something I've come across.

 

[JFletcher]

Thank you kindly.
Not something I've come across.

You are most welcome sir. When you say it's something you haven't come across, do you mean the term, or the installation?. if a wire is too short in a breaker panel, how do you extend it? or better yet, what do you call that extension?

 

[wwhitney]

If I understand your scenario you're saying tap the neutral with a smaller (#8) conductor and then splice on a few #12's. It was mentioned earlier 240.4(A).

Only if you consider the #8 pigtail part of the branch circuits. If you consider it part of the feeder, there's no 200.4(A) violation. That's my point.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

Only if you consider the #8 pigtail part of the branch circuits. If you consider it part of the feeder, there's no 200.4(A) violation. That's my point.

Cheers, Wayne

It's ok if you only splice one conductor to it once you splice two or three circuits you violate the section posted.

 

[Little Bill]

Pigtails?
Just a brief explanation if someone can spare the time?

a short section of wire used as a jumper or extension. Also, the coiled up wire that comes off of a GFCI or afci breaker

Thank you kindly.
Not something I've come across.

You are most welcome sir. When you say it's something you haven't come across, do you mean the term, or the installation?. if a wire is too short in a breaker panel, how do you extend it? or better yet, what do you call that extension?

To nit pick a little....
A pigtail is not the same as an extension IMO. That would just be a spliced wire to another single wire to extend it.

A pigtail in this discussion and, for example, in a box for a switch or receptacle, where you splice all the wires together along with a single "jumper" wire to make a single connection. In this thread, all the neutrals are tied together, presumably because there wasn't enough room on the neutral bar, and a single wire terminates on the bar.
In a box with a device (receptacle, switch, etc.) that has only a single ground connection and there are two or more grounds in there, you would tie all the grounds together and a single wire to terminate on the ground screw/connection. The single wire in both of these examples is what we call a "pigtail".

You are correct with the example of a GFCI or AFCI breaker with the neutral wire coiled coming off the breaker. But this is called a "pigtail" only because it resembles a real "pig's" tail.

 

[kwired]

It's ok if you only splice one conductor to it once you splice two or three circuits you violate the section posted.

So one could come off the neutral bus with a piece of #10 or #8 (depending on what max current may be) and do this but must use a multiport connection device of some sort instead of a wire nut or any other device that ends up landing them all in same port?

If you ran a feeder to a three space panel and landed all three circuits involved there, you sort of have the same thing.

 

[infinity]

So one could come off the neutral bus with a piece of #10 or #8 (depending on what max current may be) and do this but must use a multiport connection device of some sort instead of a wire nut or any other device that ends up landing them all in same port?

If you ran a feeder to a three space panel and landed all three circuits involved there, you sort of have the same thing.

You can create a MWBC and that's it. You cannot use a larger neutral and then splice on circuits that are on the same "phase". Isn't 200.4(A) clear?

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall be
installed in accordance with 200.4(A) and (B).
(A) Installation. Neutral conductors shall not be used for
more than one branch circuit, for more than one multiwire
branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded
feeder conductors unless specifically permitted elsewhere
in this Code.

 

[kwired]

You can create a MWBC and that's it. You cannot use a larger neutral and then splice on circuits that are on the same "phase". Isn't 200.4(A) clear?

So if the neutral bar is full NEC would rather see you leave them floating then to find a way to connect them? I basically described a way to extend the neutral bar and still have only one conductor per port on the extended bar.

If it is a service panel and there are EGC's on the bar then one can install an additional EGC bar and free up some spaces, but what else can you do if there are no spaces to free up outside of creating MWBC's where possible?

 

[wwhitney]

You can create a MWBC and that's it. You cannot use a larger neutral and then splice on circuits that are on the same "phase". Isn't 200.4(A) clear?

The feeder neutral is common to multiple branch circuits, but that's OK because it's part of the feeder, not part of the branch circuits. The neutral bar in the panel is common to multiple branch circuits, but that's OK because it's part of the feeder, not part of the branch circuits.

So if the #8 pigtail to the neutral bus bar is considered part of the feeder, rather than part of a branch circuit, it is OK, there is no 200.4(A) violation. Thus my original question, where does the feeder neutral conductor end and the branch circuit neutral conductor begin? As far as I can tell, there is no specific guidance in the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JFletcher]

So if the neutral bar is full NEC would rather see you leave them floating then to find a way to connect them? I basically described a way to extend the neutral bar and still have only one conductor per port on the extended bar.

If it is a service panel and there are EGC's on the bar then one can install an additional EGC bar and free up some spaces, but what else can you do if there are no spaces to free up outside of creating MWBC's where possible?

Replace the panel with a newer one that has enough spaces on the neutral bar for all the circuits. or if it's the main panel where neutrals and grounds are tied together (bonded at that point) anyway just add another ground bar and stick the neutrals on that.

Like Infinity has posted a few times now, a larger neutral wire pigtailed into a few branch circuit neutrals, other than a single multiwire branch circuit, is a code violation.

 

[infinity]

The feeder neutral is common to multiple branch circuits, but that's OK because it's part of the feeder, not part of the branch circuits. The neutral bar in the panel is common to multiple branch circuits, but that's OK because it's part of the feeder, not part of the branch circuits.

So if the #8 pigtail to the neutral bus bar is considered part of the feeder, rather than part of a branch circuit, it is OK, there is no 200.4(A) violation. Thus my original question, where does the feeder neutral conductor end and the branch circuit neutral conductor begin? As far as I can tell, there is no specific guidance in the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

It's an interesting idea but I don't think that you'll find many who think that a short piece of #8 connect to the neutral bar is an extension of the feeder. The code language in {200.4(A)} was added to the NEC a few code cycles ago based on a proposal written by one of our mods to address this specific type of installation. Maybe they will add their comments.

 

[kwired]

It's an interesting idea but I don't think that you'll find many who think that a short piece of #8 connect to the neutral bar is an extension of the feeder. The code language in {200.4(A)} was added to the NEC a few code cycles ago based on a proposal written by one of our mods to address this specific type of installation. Maybe they will add their comments.

I can understand not being allowed if all the conductors in question get landed in a single point connection device like a "wire nut". If extended to another multiport type of device how is this electrically any different then if you extended a feeder to another panelboard and only made it up with one conductor per port on the connection device?

 

[kwired]

Replace the panel with a newer one that has enough spaces on the neutral bar for all the circuits. or if it's the main panel where neutrals and grounds are tied together (bonded at that point) anyway just add another ground bar and stick the neutrals on that.

Like Infinity has posted a few times now, a larger neutral wire pigtailed into a few branch circuit neutrals, other than a single multiwire branch circuit, is a code violation.

You can't just bolt another ground bar to the cabinet and land neutrals on it. The cabinet can't be part of the grounded conductor path. You could possibly place a bonding jumper between the neutral bar and the added ground bar - but then you are sort of doing what I have been suggesting, only the size of the bonding jumper is what may be questionable.

 

[LarryFine]

Okay, let's say we add an accessory neutral bus to the panel and install a short conductor between the existing and new buses. What is that conductor, and how large does it need to be to qualify the new bar as "the neutral bar of the panel" and not just "a piece of wire that connects several neutrals to the existing neutral bar"?

 

[JFletcher]

Okay, let's say we add an accessory neutral bus to the panel and install a short conductor between the existing and new buses. What is that conductor, and how large does it need to be to qualify the new bar as "the neutral bar of the panel" and not just "a piece of wire that connects several neutrals to the existing neutral bar"?

Let's make it simpler... Let's say the accessory neutral bar is secured to the original neutral bar by using approved, Factory provided bolts or screws. Basically instead of adding a single lug, you're adding an entire neutral bar. no need then for sizing the wire between the two or figuring out its name or load rating / capacity.

And kwired, you are correct about bolting the neutral bar to the panel, I thought about that about 16 minutes after I made my original post...

 

[wwhitney]

Let's make it simpler... Let's say the accessory neutral bar is secured to the original neutral bar by using approved, Factory provided bolts or screws. Basically instead of adding a single lug, you're adding an entire neutral bar. no need then for sizing the wire between the two or figuring out its name or load rating / capacity.

No, that's the easy case, there's no question. With Larry's scenario, what do you call the field-installed wire joining the two neutral bars, and how does it relate to 200.4(A)? I think it is a feeder conductor, and 200.4(A) doesn't apply.

Obviously it would be OK to size this wire the same as the feeder to the panel, but suppose you instead calculate the maximum unbalanced current based on the size and phase of the breakers feeding the circuits which land on this second neutral bar. Does that change anything?

If not, now replace the second neutral bar with a big wirenut, and we are back to the OP's situation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Coppersmith]

On Eaton panels the two neutral bars are tied together with a flat insulated conductor which doesn't look very large to me. It is of course a factory part so it must be listed for the purpose, but still, it's not very large.

However:

You could easily make more space as was mentioned by removing grounds. You wouldn't need to put in a new ground bar however since grounds are allowed to be wirenutted together. You could take a whole pile and put them under a blue wirenut and just land (I prefer that word) a single ground wire that is as big as the biggest under the nut.

 

[Andy Delle]

Using a larger pigtail seems to make sense.

But where is the NEC table for upsizing conductor gauges? Where does it say for example three #12 = 0ne #8? There is plenty of advice available but where is the official table?

Lacking that I would say this practice is illegal.