Plastic bushing

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Oh, I didn't read the question correctly. I was thinking about a pvc sleeve going into a box with a male adapter and we were talking about the male adapter, not the other end.
 
K8MHZ said:
That's just one part of the requirement. The fitting's purpose is to protect from abrasion. Does the sharp edge of a male T/A protect from abrasion? That's questionable, but put a 20 cent bushing on it and there would be no question.
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If it not too sharp to require a bushing for smaller than #4 wire then I would say that it wouldn't be too sharp for a cable since they have an additional jacket.

Its also does not matter anyway to the NEC since it is a fitting and meets the code requirement.
 
K8MHZ said:
That's just one part of the requirement. The fitting's purpose is to protect from abrasion. Does the sharp edge of a male T/A protect from abrasion? That's questionable, but put a 20 cent bushing on it and there would be no question.
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The requirement is for a fitting not a bushing. You are fee to use a bushing but not required too.

Other NEC sections do require a bushing.
 
K8MHZ said:
I don't agree about using a male PVC transition adapter without a bushing because I don't feel it protects against abrasion without one. The edges on T/A's can be sharp!!. That being said, a PVC coupling is a fitting and would do a good job protecting against abrasion.
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I think that is a very common-sense awareness that comes from handling the materials regularly. My local AHJ run and/or authorized continuing ed has emphasized that the open end of a PVC coupling, used as you suggest, is listed only to have a raceway pass through it. PVC adapters, however, are listed for the termination of the raceway and for the wiring to emerge from the raceway.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I think that is a very common-sense awareness that comes from handling the materials regularly. My local AHJ run and/or authorized continuing ed has emphasized that the open end of a PVC coupling, used as you suggest, is listed only to have a raceway pass through it.
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Where does it say they have to be listed?

The closest thing I can find is 300.16 (F) that says fittings must be 'identified for the use', it does not say they need to be listed.

Article 100 defines 'Identified' as 'Recognizable as suitable' for a specific purpose, use, etc.

The FPN says that 'listing and labeling' is just an example of several suggested ways to determine suitability, but is an example, not a requirement.

PVC adapters, however, are listed for the termination of the raceway and for the wiring to emerge from the raceway.
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A MALE PVC transition adapter is only listed to be used with a locknut to secure it to a box. This has been discussed here before. Therefore, unless someone can show me otherwise, MALE PVC adapters are NOT listed to be used the way your local AHJ prescribes.
 
K8MHZ said:
Where does it say they have to be listed?

The closest thing I can find is 300.16 (F) that says fittings must be 'identified for the use', it does not say they need to be listed.

Article 100 defines 'Identified' as 'Recognizable as suitable' for a specific purpose, use, etc. . . A MALE PVC transition adapter is only listed to be used with a locknut to secure it to a box. This has been discussed here before. Therefore, unless someone can show me otherwise, MALE PVC adapters are NOT listed to be used the way your local AHJ prescribes.
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You are correct. "Identified for the use."

I'll quibble and prevaricate about your claim of "only", however.
 
al hildenbrand said:
I'll quibble and prevaricate about your claim of "only", however.
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Yea! I found the listing! It's OK to use threaded adapters in metal hubs, however.......

1.5.3 Externally-threaded adapters (also referred to as terminal adapters) covered by these requirements are fittings intended for joining a length of rigid PVC conduit or elbow to:
a) The knockout area of a metal box with a metal locknut,
b) A threaded metal hub or fitting on a metal box,
c) A threaded hub on a phenolic box, or
d) A knockout in a phenolic box.
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So, they are NOT listed for use without a box or a hub.
 
K8MHZ said:
I would like to see the listing's exact wording myself.

It has been discussed here that it is against code to use a male PVC adapter in a threaded metal hub (like we do all the time on overhead services) because the listing only included tests done with the adapters secured to a box with a locknut.

I will try to find a link to back up my statement. I am not good at finding UL listings.
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Seems like a waste of time, we all know MAs are used all the time with threaded bell boxes and inspectors are fine with it. So you want to prove that they are not listed to use to protect a cable from abrasion. What would the point of that be?
 
iwire said:
Seems like a waste of time, we all know MAs are used all the time with threaded bell boxes and inspectors are fine with it. So you want to prove that they are not listed to use to protect a cable from abrasion. What would the point of that be?
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We must have posted at the same time.

Point being an inspector slash something or other said they were. I disagreed and like to be able to support my stance with a credible back up, which I did find. And what goes on the end of a PVC sleeve is kind of the topic of this thread.

PVC adapters, however, are listed for the termination of the raceway and for the wiring to emerge from the raceway.
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Did you know the conditions of the listing before I posted them?
 
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K8MHZ said:
Point being an inspector slash something or other said they were. I disagreed and like to be able to support my stance with a credible back up, which I did find. And what goes on the end of a PVC sleeve is kind of the topic of this thread.
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So you can win this pissing contest and shoot yourself in the foot. Seems like a waste of time.


And yes, I was well aware of MAs listings, it is a common subject on the forum.
 
K8MHZ said:
Is someone forcing you to be here? I have no intentions nor desire to waste your time. If I have, my apologies, you are free to leave anytime you wish.
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LOL

I see, you get to give your opinions and I should shut up.

Well it does not work that way, you get to give your opinion and I get to give mine.

The bottom line is for whatever reason the CMP chose the defined word 'fitting' which means a fitting is all that is required, not specifically a bushing.
 
iwire said:
LOL

I see, you get to give your opinions and I should shut up.]
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I never said that, nor do I think it. My comment was directed at your contention that what I was posting was a waste of your time. Had you not brought that up and the juvenile 'pissing contest' thing, I would never have pointed out the fact that you are free to not read or participate here.

Well it does not work that way, you get to give your opinion and I get to give mine.

The bottom line is for whatever reason the CMP chose the defined word 'fitting' which means a fitting is all that is required, not specifically a bushing.
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Now I have to ask what your point is? I already concurred there are other ways, like the bottom fitting in the above pictures.

I am not the one that said TA's were listed for PVC sleeves, that was a quote from an inspector.

My reading of the requirement includes the necessity of protection from abrasion. From personal experience, I do not believe a TA alone satisfies that requirement and not putting on a 20 cent bushing is poor workmanship. Like I said before, the edges of those TA's can be very sharp.

So, to answer the OP's question, I would say that yes, a bushing is required on a PVC sleeve with NM unless there is some other fitting that could be used that did not have a sharp enough surface to abrade the cable. And since I don't really know of any, couplings sound OK but vary from maker to maker, we would be back to requiring a bushing.

I have found it interesting that there seems to be no UL approved means to use PVC as a sleeve. The Catch-22 is that 1) a fitting is required that protects from abrasion. 2) UL doesn't list any fitting that terminates in free air 3) NEC doesn't require a listing.

Does the NEC require us to use listed products according to their listing??

If yes, we can't use TAs , even with a bushing.

If no, we can use a coupling or a TA, so long as it is obvious the fitting won't abrade the cable, even if we have to file the edges of a coupling or a TA off to make them smooth or dull.

So is it yes or is it no? I honestly don't know for sure, especially in cases like this.
 
K8MHZ said:
I never said that, nor do I think it. My comment was directed at your contention that what I was posting was a waste of your time. Had you not brought that up and the juvenile 'pissing contest' thing, I would never have pointed out the fact that you are free to not read or participate here.



Now I have to ask what your point is? I already concurred there are other ways, like the bottom fitting in the above pictures.

I am not the one that said TA's were listed for PVC sleeves, that was a quote from an inspector.

My reading of the requirement includes the necessity of protection from abrasion. From personal experience, I do not believe a TA alone satisfies that requirement and not putting on a 20 cent bushing is poor workmanship. Like I said before, the edges of those TA's can be very sharp.

So, to answer the OP's question, I would say that yes, a bushing is required on a PVC sleeve with NM unless there is some other fitting that could be used that did not have a sharp enough surface to abrade the cable. And since I don't really know of any, couplings sound OK but vary from maker to maker, we would be back to requiring a bushing.

I have found it interesting that there seems to be no UL approved means to use PVC as a sleeve. The Catch-22 is that 1) a fitting is required that protects from abrasion. 2) UL doesn't list any fitting that terminates in free air 3) NEC doesn't require a listing.

Does the NEC require us to use listed products according to their listing??

If yes, we can't use TAs , even with a bushing.

If no, we can use a coupling or a TA, so long as it is obvious the fitting won't abrade the cable, even if we have to file the edges of a coupling or a TA off to make them smooth or dull.

So is it yes or is it no? I honestly don't know for sure, especially in cases like this.
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Arlington makes a UL listed bushing that doesn't require a TA. See the link in my post #20

Also if a bushing isn't required until you get to #4 wire, then a TA isn't too sharp for the NEC for smaller wires and should be fine for cables since they have a jacket in addition to the conductor insulation.
 
tkb said:
Arlington makes a UL listed bushing that doesn't require a TA. See the link in my post #20
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I did not catch the part about them being made for PVC. Thanks! To me, that's the only code compliant fitting. I will definitely make a note of that bushing.

Also if a bushing isn't required until you get to #4 wire, then a TA isn't too sharp for the NEC for smaller wires and should be fine for cables since they have a jacket in addition to the conductor insulation.
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I have seen some that would certainly be sharp enough to cut through the jacket of NM cable. It would easily be able to abrade it.

They may not all be that way. We just put bushings on them so we don't have to worry about the edges.
 
jumper said:
Aah. He is cute as all get out.:)

Name?
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His name is Charlie.

My daughter loves animals. She volunteered at an animal shelter from the time she was 16 until she was almost 20. She is home from college for the summer and plans to spend the summer season raising him good and proper. So far, he seems to be a pretty good pup.

They also have a very nice Labrador. He is getting pretty old and is having a hard time walking. His name is Stanley and he is a great dog. Charlie likes try to get Stanley to play, but poor Stanley just doesn't have it in him any more.
 
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