Plastic VS. Metal; Fair labor assessment

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brantmacga

brantmacga

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Location
Georgia
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Former Child
I'll be roughing one of my own houses in a just a few weeks. I'm going to do it in plastic to find out exactly how much $$ I can save. I'm probably going to try out wire nuts on all the joints too. I've already gotten a dollar amount on what I'll save in materials. Plastic is about 20% what metal costs. I've tried to rough estimate the labor I'll save and I'm coming up w/ a figure around .12 minutes per sq. ft. per man. which could translate to 4 hours per man on a 2k ft. home. Any of you that have done it both ways, does this sound reasonable? I guess what I'm looking for is some sort of benchmark to see how we compare doing it "the other way". If you've used metal, you know how labor intensive they can be sometimes; twist-outs, nailing up, clamps, gangables, etc. . . This is also figuring the difference between using a staple gun vs. hammer and staple. Your thoughts (other than 'you idiot you should've already tried this; i know i'm stubborn, old school trained, blah blah, i know this already')? thanks.
 
brantmacga said:
Your thoughts (other than 'you idiot you should've already tried this; i know i'm stubborn, old school trained, blah blah, i know this already')? thanks.
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Yeah, those were pretty much my thoughts. ;) :D

Since nobody uses metal boxes around my area for new-work, and hasn't since the early 70's, it would be impossible to make the comparison. Most contractors have no historical data for it, and those that do are retired in Florida or in the dirt. Any new house is assumed to be bid with those modern inventions of plastic boxes and wire nuts. :D
 
You all think I'm crazy, but 5 years ago 70% of new work here was metal and solder. Today its about 40% metal, but still around 70% of EC's solder their connections. I'm not the only one!
 
metal versus plastic

metal versus plastic

the extra cost of the metal boxes will likely exist, no doubt. A metal box will almost always last longer than a plastic one, if the metal drywall ring should strip out of a 4" X any depth bracket box, cutting it out and replacing it is almost always easier than fighting with a plastic box when the 6-32 screw holes strip out!
Future proof work will always be seen for what it is!
 
brantmacga said:
You all think I'm crazy, but 5 years ago 70% of new work here was metal and solder. Today its about 40% metal, but still around 70% of EC's solder their connections. I'm not the only one!
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Glad I don't work down south... ;) :grin:
 
ex-seabee said:
the extra cost of the metal boxes will likely exist, no doubt. A metal box will almost always last longer than a plastic one, if the metal drywall ring should strip out of a 4" X any depth bracket box, cutting it out and replacing it is almost always easier than fighting with a plastic box when the 6-32 screw holes strip out!
Future proof work will always be seen for what it is!
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What do you mean by last longer? I've never seen a plastic box just disappear? and as far as stripping a 6-32, If your a real mechanic this will not be a problem. Screw holes just dont strip out, they are un-mechanically induced. :)
 
I remember in my travels to so Cal in the late 90's, early 2000's and going through the numerous tract developments during the building boom and marveling at the massive number of Carlon blue boxes being used (the EC's that wired practically every house in every development used them). It was like plastic box heaven - you should check it out some time! :D
 
I honestly have to say that I had no idea anyone was still soldering joints. I truly figured that was gone 40+ years ago.

In response to your question I can't give you any idea how much you would save having never done it your way. My only word of advice is that in my experience those staple guns work a lot better on paper than in reality. It's not that they are entirely useless, just that their limitations make it a burden to carry along with the hammer. Plus the hammer fits much nicer in a hammer loop. Who ever heard of a staple gun loop?:smile:
 
Welcome to the 70's :)

1. Plastic boxes are not conductive.

2. Wire nuts are removable

You will like it.


A metal box will almost always last longer than a plastic one, if the metal drywall ring should strip out of a 4" X any depth bracket box, cutting it out and replacing it is almost always easier than fighting with a plastic box when the 6-32 screw holes strip out!
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That's crazy talk.
 
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ex-seabee said:
the extra cost of the metal boxes will likely exist, no doubt. A metal box will almost always last longer than a plastic one, if the metal drywall ring should strip out of a 4" X any depth bracket box, cutting it out and replacing it is almost always easier than fighting with a plastic box when the 6-32 screw holes strip out!
Future proof work will always be seen for what it is!
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It is much easier to unwire a single nail on and pry it off the stud and place a new smart box on its place than patch were you had to cut to put a new plaster ring on a 4x4 box. You could put a 8-32 in the lace of a 6-32 if you didn't want to go through that.
 
Staple gun for what type of wire? When doing a metal house do you use EMT and MC everywhere? EMT for your homeruns say in the attic space then spider out with MC? Or are you just using metal boxes and NM?

Those pesky screw holes on plastic boxes aren't a problem. If you strip one out use a wood screw.
 
brantmacga said:
I'm going to do it in plastic to find out exactly how much $$ I can save. I'm probably going to try out wire nuts on all the joints too.
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Great post. It brought back lots of memories of when I was a young boy. Following my Dad around and bragging to everyone who would listen, that I was going to be an electrician some day. I'd watch him install metal boxes and pipe. Then later watch him twist and solder splices and cover them with his friction tape. He did like the old set screw type wire nuts but said they were to expensive to waste money on. He never did trust twist on wire nuts. Let us know how you make out on that job and what you think.
 
My only word of advice is that in my experience those staple guns work a lot better on paper than in reality.
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thanks for that advice. I'll just buy one and we'll try it out and see how it works. It just looked like another time saver.

Or are you just using metal boxes and NM?
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Yes. we don't use 4" square boxes. I use EGS 16LE gangables, ,16LES device boxes, and 561LDJB o/h boxes. The 16LES device box looks just like your plastic device box but has twist-outs and wire clamps, along w/ a 1/2" ko towards the front.

Let us know how you make out on that job and what you think.
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will do. i think i've finally reached the point where i realize that no one cares what type of box you use, or how you connect them. it all looks the same on the outside. understand that my way of doing it has nothing to do w/ bragging about 'superior' techniques, that's just how almost every EC here was trained to do it, no matter how long you've been around. I'm seeing more and more EC's switching to plastic and wire nuts and they're charging the same price. I figured, why not?
 
Not sure how you are doing your grounds but where I"m from everyone uses crimp sleeves and twists the grounds together in residential. Much easier, faster and in my opinion better than wire nutting them.
 
wireman71 said:
Not sure how you are doing your grounds but where I"m from everyone uses crimp sleeves and twists the grounds together in residential. Much easier, faster and in my opinion better than wire nutting them.
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Believe it or not, the crimp sleeves are not listed for use with grounding conductors. We had a long discussion about this awhile back and it was an eye-opener for many of us.

Personally, I hate the crimp sleeves and would not use them for anything, ever. They are way too cheesy, even when used with the proper crimping tool.

I prefer the green wirenut (aka Greenie) for grounding, and incidentally it's the only connector listed for use with grounding conductors. However, I've been know to use a regular wire nut as well. ;)
 
peter d said:
Believe it or not, the crimp sleeves are not listed for use with grounding conductors. We had a long discussion about this awhile back and it was an eye-opener for many of us.

Personally, I hate the crimp sleeves and would not use them for anything, ever. They are way too cheesy, even when used with the proper crimping tool.

I prefer the green wirenut (aka Greenie) for grounding, and incidentally it's the only connector listed for use with grounding conductors. However, I've been know to use a regular wire nut as well. ;)
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is that the one w/ the hole in the end of it? i've seen that, and it looks very useful.
 
The Ideal crimp sleaves are pretty nice. I prefer using crimp sleeves for residential grounds. I would check with your inspector though as some have stated it apparently might not be legal everywhere.
 
I thought soldering wires was a dead practice..interesting on the ground sleeve crimps another reason not to use them..I like greenies but normally just use regular wire nut..metal vs plastic cost is only advantage..I am still amazed that people solder connections still, what a pain in the a-- them are to work with wow..
 
brantmacga said:
Yes. we don't use 4" square boxes. I use EGS 16LE gangables, ,16LES device boxes, and 561LDJB o/h boxes. The 16LES device box looks just like your plastic device box but has twist-outs and wire clamps, along w/ a 1/2" ko towards the front.
Click to expand...


I don't know what those are, but even saying the names takes to long. :D
 
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