Please confirm my suspicion, the inspector should not have passed this.

Status
Not open for further replies.
growler said:
Your right that's all screwed up. I can't believe an electrician ( I mean an EC) would do this type of work so I'm thinking that it's a homeowner install.
Click to expand...
Sadly, this is probably one of the top 5 companies in the area, been around over 60 years. Certainly, I won't claim to have more brilliance nor ability than the number of technicians this company employs, but damn, when I see an $18k plus job look like this (you didn't see the mechanical install, it's reflective of the electrical) it makes me feel pretty good about the work I do.
I ask, how does any electrician NOT know you can't use an EGC as a neutral??? Isn't that basic electrical 101?
 
So, a follow up question here. How can the inspector tell them to remove the bonding screw and not tell them to install a ground bar? This would make me believe that the inspector believes it IS ok to use the egc as a neutral in this configuration. How would an inspector come to this conclusion?

Also, isn't the metal box required to be bonded in some way? So, as it is now, in the instance of a terminal short the box would not trip the breaker, and anyone coming in contact with it could potentially become energized.

Correct me if I'm wrong here: in order to repair this installation:
1- a 3 wire w/g needs to be routed from the main service panel
2- a ground bar needs to be installed, ecg's separated from the neutral, and ground bar bonded to the box. Obviously the neutral bar cannot be bonded.
3- breakers need to be listed for use with the box.
 
Last edited:
Mgarf33 said:
So, I just looked at a neighbors hvac installation. I believe they had failed the electrical twice for other reasons before the inspector passed it.
First failure was due to NMB routed in plastic conduit down the exterior of the home. So, they spiced it with THWN at the 90° junction as it penetrates the attic. Apparently, they used all black conductors because they used tape to relabel.
The second was to remove the bonding jumper.

Here's a picture of the sub panel they installed as a disconnect. The wires relabeled with white and green tape are feeding a 1ph branch circuit to the 15A/ 120v gas furnace. They are routed up the side of the house in plastic electrical conduit 20', and 90° into the attic. The 2 pole breaker is a 1ph branch circuit to the 25A/ 240v AC unit.

View attachment 2551348
Click to expand...
You can't re-Identify any wire under #4 awg
 
I believe Jkemler is correct, 6 awg and smaller ungrounded conductors cannot be relabeled as grounded conductors because it must be continuous though the entire length of the wire. However, grounded conductors 6 awg and smaller may be relabeled as ungrounded conductors so long as wire is not green.
Reference 200.6(A) and 200.7(C)(1)
 
Mgarf33 said:
I believe Jkemler is correct, 6 awg and smaller ungrounded conductors cannot be relabeled as grounded conductors because it must be continuous though the entire length of the wire.
Reference 200.6(A) and 200.7(C)(1)
Click to expand...
I didn't say a small conductor could be re-identified to be a grounded conductor or EGC or vice versa, I said a small ungrounded conductor can be re-identified so, the statement that a conductor smaller that #4 can not be re-identifed is not correct.

Roger
 
Interesting addition to 200.7(C), even though you can relabel a white wire in a "cable" to be an ungrounded conductor, a white wire in a "raceway" may not be relabeled. I did not know that before.
If the white wire in a cable is relabeled going to a switch it must be the supply power to the switch, and not the wire out of the switch going to the outlet. That's news to me as well.
I guess this company is going to be running new wires up the conduit as well.

Shouldn't they have just ran UF and been done with it???
 
Last edited:
Mgarf33 said:
Interesting addition to 200.7(C), even though you can relabel a white wire in a "cable" to be an ungrounded conductor, a white wire in a "raceway" may not be relabeled. I did not know that before.
Click to expand...
That is not a new addition, it goes back many code cycles.

Roger
 
Mgarf33 said:
Sadly, this is probably one of the top 5 companies in the area, been around over 60 years.
I ask, how does any electrician NOT know you can't use an EGC as a neutral??? Isn't that basic electrical 101?
Click to expand...

Just being a neighbor you don't really have a dog in this fight. If I were you I would give this picture along with a list of code violations to the homeowner. Let him/her contact the company that did this work and give them a chance to come and correct these violations. If they refuse the HO can contact the inspection department.

Just because a job passes an inspection doesn't mean the contractor that did the install is no longer responsible for it. Have the HO tell the contractor they got shocked when they touched the disconnect and they are talking to their lawyer about it and that will probably get action pretty quick. ( I'm kind of joking about the shocked and lawyer thing).
 
Mgarf33 said:
So, a follow up question here. How can the inspector tell them to remove the bonding screw and not tell them to install a ground bar? This would make me believe that the inspector believes it IS ok to use the egc as a neutral in this configuration. How would an inspector come to this conclusion?

Also, isn't the metal box required to be bonded in some way? So, as it is now, in the instance of a terminal short the box would not trip the breaker, and anyone coming in contact with it could potentially become energized.

Correct me if I'm wrong here: in order to repair this installation:
1- a 3 wire w/g needs to be routed from the main service panel
2- a ground bar needs to be installed, ecg's separated from the neutral, and ground bar bonded to the box. Obviously the neutral bar cannot be bonded.
3- breakers need to be listed for use with the box.
Click to expand...


If you remove bonding screw and install a ground bar, you still have no neutral conductor in existing supply cable, so you still have some problems.

Yes a 3 wire w/g needs installed or most metal raceway and certain metal sheathed cables can be the EGC.

Yes an additional EGC bar must be installed and neutral bar must be isolated from the EGC and the enclosure, unless this is service equipment, but if it is then there are other violations, one NM cable can't be used for service entrance conductor, two I know that Homeline panel is not listed for use as service equipment unless it has a main breaker installed and proper hold down device on said main, left two breaker positions have the provision for the hold down device.

Yes Homeline does not list anything but Homeline breakers as suitable for use in that panel.
 
The other thing that might be an issue is where he spliced the wires going into the attic. If its a 1/2" or 3/4" LB the volume is generally only 4.35 CU(1/2) or 7cu(3/4") which is not large enough for splices.

#12 wire.
2.25 cu x 4 (current caring wires, 2 wires cut = 4 wires ) + 2.25 for ground = 11.24 cu
 
To fix this per my opinion:
  1. Must install neutral wire from feeder panel to the neutral bus. (remove that ground wire or any other ground wires in that neutral bus) Neutral wire from 15A single pole load breaker to be only load neutral along with feeder neutral.
  2. Add additional ground bar on lower right or lower left hand corner, looks like that's what those two holes are intended for. This will also ground the sub panel. Re-install large ground wire into this new ground bus. Install all other load grounds in this ground bus. Keep grounds and ground bus separate from any neutral bus or neutral wires.
  3. Install correct breakers for intended panel.
Have installing contractor install correctly. I'm assuming the owner of this business will be embarrassed and will remedy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top