Please critic the attached summer camp design

[fmtjfw]

I'm wiring a small summer camp for a relative. Are there any suggestions you might have for the design?

 

[__dan]

Well, reading it, it's hard to read with the mix of scope, installation detail, and code citations all together.

It's not clear why there's a 200 amp service and (2) 100 amp subpanels for a 560 sq ft seasonal cottage with no electric heat, A/C, or hot tub. No laundry ? There is no load for the 200.

At first I thought the service was for a large commercial camp kitchen.

I believe you asked for a critique of the design and not the written proposal. It looks like you may have doubled up on the service size and equipment, labor, costs. With all that extra detail, I would be afraid the customer would just give that to his painter, gardener, and say 'here wire that'. I can just see the gardener wiring it and telling me, 'see, you don't need the meter breaker combo or the other subpanel' (had something like that happen once).

 

[fmtjfw]

Heating

Heating

Electric Range, Electric water heater, Electric bathroom heater, unknown amount of Electric Heat, no other heat source other than a small fireplace in living room.

Living room, kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, loft.
No ceilings living room, kitchen, loft.
Handmade single-pane 3'x3' windows on 90% of the external walls.
2-? foot high completely open crawl space. 2x4 framing.
Currently NO insulation under floor. Insulation planned for walls and presumably roof.


Quick rule of thumb: 560 Sq Ft * 10 W/Sq = 5.6kW / 240V = 23.33 A, but I'll be amazed if that is enough.
They are mumbling about A/C but that is not in today's budget.

POCO highly recommended 200A given description.

My brother did rough in about 10 years ago with 12-2 w/G. They are talking about moving receptacles ...

Materials at cost, labor free.

Details are there in case I need to argue with the inspector (I've chosen the pickest in the area).

 

[GUNNING]

Dwelling Unit?

Dwelling Unit?

I'm wiring a small summer camp for a relative. Are there any suggestions you might have for the design?

I'm not sure this fits the definition of a dwelling unit. There are future provisions of a sanitary pump but not installed. There are future provisions of heat but not permanent. By definition of a dwelling unit you need permanent provisions for sanitation, cooking, living, and sleeping. I would argue that the sanitation and living are not permanent because the lift station is missing and the heat is not permanently installed.

The deration of the service neutral might need to be full size because the loads cannot be described and because it is not a dwelling unit you cannot derate the neutral. You are also going to have to revisit sizing of the service conductors and take them from table 310.15 B 16 and not 310.15 B 7 Which would lead to re sizing your conduit.

The added panels and the over sized service for a 560 sq ft bld is way over kill. I can see the 200 amp service to facilitate the future needs of say other camp sites but putting in panels where "campers" can access them would be a mistake. The PVC might not hold up to varmints and you should consider steel installation of everything. Cabins have a tendency to get vandalized. Hardening the installation and providing steel conduit will cut down on re installation of the wiring. Since it is not a dwelling unit by definition you wont need arc fault circuits. I would use GFCI breakers on everything and idiot proof the installation. I would also consider using 10 foot ground rods or maybe salting the grounding sites. If its in the mountains rock and no groundwater would make for a high impedance earth ground, you might also consider doing the water bond if there is water to the cabin or a well.

Yes this would add to the cost. 200 amps on a 560 sq ft cabin, not exactly ruffing it, huh?

 

[iwire]

because it is not a dwelling unit you cannot derate the neutral.

I do not understand this comment. :?

 

[fmtjfw]

I'm not sure this fits the definition of a dwelling unit. There are future provisions of a sanitary pump but not installed. There are future provisions of heat but not permanent. By definition of a dwelling unit you need permanent provisions for sanitation, cooking, living, and sleeping. I would argue that the sanitation and living are not permanent because the lift station is missing and the heat is not permanently installed.

The deration of the service neutral might need to be full size because the loads cannot be described and because it is not a dwelling unit you cannot derate the neutral. You are also going to have to revisit sizing of the service conductors and take them from table 310.15 B 16 and not 310.15 B 7 Which would lead to re sizing your conduit.

The added panels and the over sized service for a 560 sq ft bld is way over kill. I can see the 200 amp service to facilitate the future needs of say other camp sites but putting in panels where "campers" can access them would be a mistake. The PVC might not hold up to varmints and you should consider steel installation of everything. Cabins have a tendency to get vandalized. Hardening the installation and providing steel conduit will cut down on re installation of the wiring. Since it is not a dwelling unit by definition you wont need arc fault circuits. I would use GFCI breakers on everything and idiot proof the installation. I would also consider using 10 foot ground rods or maybe salting the grounding sites. If its in the mountains rock and no groundwater would make for a high impedance earth ground, you might also consider doing the water bond if there is water to the cabin or a well.

Yes this would add to the cost. 200 amps on a 560 sq ft cabin, not exactly ruffing it, huh?

I believe it is a dwelling unit.

Heating is not required for a dwelling unit. Once again, there will be some, just not designed yet.

There is no common sewer, each residence has its own solution. The matter of sanitation is unsettled because the current system is clearly illegal (a pit, leaking into the creek). They are investigating: 1) Aerator/grinder pump system, 2) septic and drain field (unlikely due to rock just below surface in many places and usable 270 X 110 down to 45 quadrilateral lot bordered on one side by creek, and 3) store and pump system.

When we got Muni water we were unable to hand dig a trench from the meter pit to the dwelling because of ledge. They also had to blast to install the mains.

I was extremely lucking in finding 2 places into which I could sink 2 8' ground rods. Water table is a foot or two below surface, so the rods should be ok. I was prepared to make a series of pictures (90? attempt, 45? attempt, shallow trench with rods in it). The only metal pipe in the water distribution is in some houses, the mains are all plastic for miles.

The matter of the subpanels is as follows: I have very little wall space for a single full-sized subpanel, I am using 2011 required AFCI breakers and just don't feel good about putting them outside (moisture and possible theft).

But the place is low-crime (camps on minimum of 140x70 lots) so neighbors are near. Camp was unused for decade, but original wiring and rolls of 12-2 w/G NM and 10-2 w/G NM laying around inside undisturbed.

No evidence of critters chewing on wiring. Critters did chew wood.

We are rushing getting in the service entrance before all the design is complete -- for construction power. Getting a temporary service would involve about an $800 charge, a deposit, a pole, and a small pole-mounted meter/CB w/GFCIs. The whole material cost for the finished installation is about $1,000 so $800 is a real added chunk for no good reason.

Thanks.

 

[__dan]

There is no common sewer, each residence has its own solution. The matter of sanitation is unsettled because the current system is clearly illegal (a pit, leaking into the creek). They are investigating: 1) Aerator/grinder pump system, 2) septic and drain field (unlikely due to rock just below surface in many places and usable 270 X 110 down to 45 quadrilateral lot bordered on one side by creek, and 3) store and pump system.

Sewer lines and septic systems are a scam to limit residential buildings to places where there is a sewer line or a large footprint of land with dry, high perc soil, which is not everywhere. Residential sewage is very easy to treat and results in mostly biofertilizer. Sewage, food, and humans are permutations of the same basic elements. Industrial wastes, solvents, and metals are the hard to treat waste that a plant is needed for.

Your application, you should look at aerated tanks, residential treatment systems like a FAST system. First tank is anaerobic digestion, next tank is an aerobic digestor, then the effluent can be dropped straight into the topsoil. Next step up are membrane bioreactors for really difficult and tight applications. Residential treatment systems are very simple tech, like rotating biological contactors.

If the regulations would allow it you could have a three pipe system. Raw urine is straight fertilizer with low biological hazard, it can go straight to the plant root materials untreated. Grey water, (laundry, kitchen, showers), can go straight to a mulch bed usually around a large tree base.The mulch holds the soaps and detergents for breakdown by microbes. Key is to have a dry aerated layer between the treatment layer and the natural groundwater (sand, fabric, mulch). Solids sewage has the biological hazard but is easily treated and the quantity is a lot less if you are separating out the grey water. They make composting toilets which may work for a camp or a smaller aerated tank treatment system like a FAST. Septic systems are 1000 year old obsolete technology, but the regs are used to limit or make building illegal.

http://www.biomicrobics.com/

 

[GoldDigger]

On a smaller scale, there have been commercial self-contained composting toilets for many years. Not cheap, but code compliant almost everywhere. Gray water would go directly to irrigation. Probably best not to let it run off along the surface to the creek though....

Tapatalk!

 

[fmtjfw]

I do not understand this comment. :?

Probably "cannot derate the neutral" is really meant to say that you cannot use "residential" sized Service Conductors.

 

[fmtjfw]

Sewer lines and septic systems are a scam to limit residential buildings to places where there is a sewer line or a large footprint of land with dry, high perc soil, which is not everywhere. Residential sewage is very easy to treat and results in mostly biofertilizer. Sewage, food, and humans are permutations of the same basic elements. Industrial wastes, solvents, and metals are the hard to treat waste that a plant is needed for.

Your application, you should look at aerated tanks, residential treatment systems like a FAST system. First tank is anaerobic digestion, next tank is an aerobic digestor, then the effluent can be dropped straight into the topsoil. Next step up are membrane bioreactors for really difficult and tight applications. Residential treatment systems are very simple tech, like rotating biological contactors.

If the regulations would allow it you could have a three pipe system. Raw urine is straight fertilizer with low biological hazard, it can go straight to the plant root materials untreated. Grey water, (laundry, kitchen, showers), can go straight to a mulch bed usually around a large tree base.The mulch holds the soaps and detergents for breakdown by microbes. Key is to have a dry aerated layer between the treatment layer and the natural groundwater (sand, fabric, mulch). Solids sewage has the biological hazard but is easily treated and the quantity is a lot less if you are separating out the grey water. They make composting toilets which may work for a camp or a smaller aerated tank treatment system like a FAST. Septic systems are 1000 year old obsolete technology, but the regs are used to limit or make building illegal.

http://www.biomicrobics.com/

I agree about lack of sewers and onsite treatment regulations are used to limit development. It was one of the tools of choice in MA.

The well water in the area is full of minerals, very foul to drink, cook with. Take a glass of water, let it stand 20 minutes -- sediment. (Yes I know about filter systems, but not a lot available in the 1960's.)

However in this case, the cost of building a Muni water service was much, much cheaper than constructing a parallel sewer system (larger pipes, appropriate slopes, possibly lift stations, and then a treatment plant). This is place about 15 miles out of town, with a couple of 100 residences/camps. The HOA runs on about $600 per residence/camp per year. Sewage system would cost millions.

They are looking at all "legal" systems. They are pretty much dead set against composting toilets. We cannot treat gray water any different than sanitary sewage unfortunately.

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll pass them along.

 

[__dan]

They are pretty much dead set against composting toilets.

That's funny. You have to understand that quite a few of the locals may have grown up with outhouses. Then you get the contingent that won't have a composting toilet but will not give up their outhouse.

Since it's a population control and intimidation tool, there are a lot of secret unwritten rules.

If you site build or buy a modular unit, there's not a huge cost difference between a composting toilet and a residential sewage treatment unit (aerated tank). If it were me, I would actually look at going into business and providing a larger local system and subscribing the neighbors. 10 or 20 homes is not a big plant but there are probably advantages in footprint and slope.

If it's anything like Ct, there's a regional heath district and then an unwritten regular appeal process through the State Health Dept for normally approved systems. Aerated tanks are not in the health code here so for those, they are by special permit from DEEP. If the local district treats you like you are talking to god, file a complaint on their license with the issuing agency, appeal their decision, build it and litigate it at the same time.

The local health code does require the district to research and adopt newer tech, but they don't enforce the rules on themselves. They put the brakes on growth and play their game sharply. Lots of tricks like not allowing upgrades from seasonal to year round, not allowing additions or teardowns.

The system that works can be very simple. I've seen them hint about using a greenhouse. I believe they regulate subsurface disposal but not surface disposal. So if your system treats and yields a useful easy effluent, but they won't give you credit for a treatment system, requiring a huge sanded fill system, you may be able to trade the huge leach field for a greenhouse (disposing of the effluent through the greenhouse).

40' x 170' is a city lot and there's no way you're going to fit a conventional leaching field with the clearances to the well and surface waters. If they're pointing you in that direction it's a huge cost and not everyone will be able to upgrade or comply. Then they will say you have a non conforming system and not allow upgrades like a modern structure or year round living for those that want that.

With a FAST system and a greenhouse to drop the effluent into, you could easily have a system big enough for year round use. You have to be careful if their agenda is actually to prevent year round use of those structures.

 

[fmtjfw]

because they grew up on outhouses, they are dead set against composting toilets!

 

[north star]

=

"Please critic the attached summer camp design:
I'm wiring a small summer camp for a relative.....Are there any suggestions you might have for the design?"

In your design, ...I did not see anything mentioned about submitting the plans to the
local AHJ for a plan review and obtaining a permit [ i.e. - let the AHJ determine
if it is a Residential or Commercial application ].......This is a building code determination,
and not an electrical code one !


=

 

[fmtjfw]

=

In your design, ...I did not see anything mentioned about submitting the plans to the
local AHJ for a plan review and obtaining a permit [ i.e. - let the AHJ determine
if it is a Residential or Commercial application ].......This is a building code determination,
and not an electrical code one !


=

There is no AHJ. There are no building permits. There is no Occupancy Permit. The building is outside any incorporated municipality. There is a home owners' association. The only electrical inspection is for the power company. It ends at the main breaker and includes proper grounding.

The State Fire Marshal's Office has state-wide jurisdiction, but they are forbidden by law to inspect 1- and 2- family dwellings (until after the fire). The state motto is Montani Semper Liberi -- Mountaineers are Always Free.

Municipalities can have inspection departments which can enforce full-building electrical inspections on new and added wiring, plumbing inspections, building-code inspections, rental-property inspections, and even go around and check the height of your grass.

The building is intended for use as a dwelling -- people plan to cook and eat, go to the bathroom, sleep, and hang out.

It has a kitchen which will have a fixed cooking appliance -- an electric stove along with microwave and refrig.
It has a bathroom which will have a toilet, sink, shower.
It has a bedroom and a sleeping loft for kids.

It is taxed as a residence.

I'll just wing it and say it is a single family dwelling.